Baroness Margaret Thatcher Has Died

[La_Dolce_Vita]

 

Why should people have to leave their community, family and friends?

Isn't the simple answer because others are no longer willing to be forced to pay to keep them there? The flip side of your demand for welfare is that others are forced to pay it. Isn't that just as liberty destroying, LDV?

 

The miners etc needed ever more subsidy. People had to pay for that - real money taken from real households. That was the essence of Maggie's point about society - you can't just go - "Oh society will pay for this" what that means is "Somebody else will pay for this."

 

The miners were perfectly welcome to carry on doing exactly what they were doing - but they could no longer do it while demanding other people pay a subsidy for them to do it.

 

The problem of "other people's money" is at the heart of socialism - and for all your claims that anarchism can get rid of money you are still left with one lot of people taking up the time and labour of another lot of people with all the tensions that produces if it is not felt to be a fair exchange.

 

Subsidies like that destroy value in multiple ways - it stops a business being efficient, and it forces people to pay these businesses money that these people otherwise would have used as they wished, it forces them to give it to those who use it inefficiently. People simply couldn't afford the taxes to pay to run an economy in such an inefficient way - the electorate knew this, and that is why they elected Maggie and then re-elected her, as all the opposition had to offer as an alternative was the same old, same old of socialism and subsidies.

 

That is the danger Labour are flirting with now, to Blair's annoyance!

I agree with what you are saying. But this is the problem with this sort of debate. It is always framed as those who support the miners (and the unions) and those who think that Thatcher had to do what she had to do.

 

I can't really comment on it from an orthodox political point of view where everything is framed in within the parameters of the existing mixed economy system.

 

It is a highly contradictory system and one where there is an ever changing sliding scale between a mixed economy with lots of socialist policies and systems or one with a different mix of them.

 

I see the problems with taking any route that allows to much power to private business and too much power to the State, which is what people are really talking about when it comes to common arguments on Thatcher's economic policies.

 

But when I say I am opposed to the idea that people should move simply because there is work somewhere else that is not from the perspective of this existing system, i.e. with all things being equal, as I am an anarchist in my politics. In any decent society, people shouldn't have to be separated from the communities they feel they belong to and from their families by many miles just to ensure they survive. That's not right.

[La_Dolce_Vita]

 

 

Where you even born whilst Thatch was in power? lol

 

Yes. Does being born while Thatcher was in power make an opinion on her policies more valid?

 

I always thought backing up an opinion with facts is what made them more or less valid.

Very true, Mr Gradgrind = but even facts can't cancel out the benefits of personal experience.

And there CAN be benefits. But I would pay more attention to someone with the facts than simply someone who just lived in the 80s. Same goes for anything.

 

I mean, you might have the experience of an 80s housewife in Newcastle, but what does that experience consist of? Is there some sort of quality of her having seen Thatcher on the telly as Prime Minister that is missing from the today? I don't really know what 'experience' is supposed to mean.

[Lonan3]

I'm not, in any way, denying the value of facts - even though there is little doubt that their presentation can often be used to convey whatever impression their compiler wishes them to. To have lived through a certain time, however; to have experienced the doubts, the fears and the emotions of the time gives, I would contend, a greater insight into the events of that time.

It is rather like trying to explain the thoughts and feelings of ordinary people during something like the Cuban missile crisis - the facts are pretty much freely available but, unless you'd lived through the long period of tension leading up to it and the genuine fear it provoked, it's very difficult to comprehend the emotional roller coaster experienced by so many at the time. And Thatcher's period in power is similarly difficult to explain to those who didn't live through it.

[P.K.]

I mean, you might have the experience of an 80s housewife in Newcastle, but what does that experience consist of? Is there some sort of quality of her having seen Thatcher on the telly as Prime Minister that is missing from the today? I don't really know what 'experience' is supposed to mean.

 

By 1984 (what an auspicious date) there were some 3.3 million unemployed. Something like 12% of the workforce. That's a lot of households living in penury with all misery, desperation and degradation that goes with it. That experience scarred them for generations it would appear. Don't forget these are UK citizens that Thatcher et al had a duty of care towards.

 

I don't know if the funeral on Wednesday will be marred by ugly scenes of hatred towards the woman who caused so much suffering. I can't see anyone disputing that something needed to be done. But not how she did it. Surely there must have been a better way.

 

But I do know this. You reap what you sow...

[La_Dolce_Vita]

I'm not, in any way, denying the value of facts - even though there is little doubt that their presentation can often be used to convey whatever impression their compiler wishes them to. To have lived through a certain time, however; to have experienced the doubts, the fears and the emotions of the time gives, I would contend, a greater insight into the events of that time.

It is rather like trying to explain the thoughts and feelings of ordinary people during something like the Cuban missile crisis - the facts are pretty much freely available but, unless you'd lived through the long period of tension leading up to it and the genuine fear it provoked, it's very difficult to comprehend the emotional roller coaster experienced by so many at the time. And Thatcher's period in power is similarly difficult to explain to those who didn't live through it.

Well if I wanted to know about the EMOTIONAL feeling of the time then you'd be right, I would be best speaking to those who lived around the time. They would be the only ones to have 'felt' those times.

 

But to have an opinion on whether this or that was right or wrong. Whether people should have done this or that etc. is an area where experience can be irrelevant.

 

People can certainly have an opinion on Thatcher even if the date was AD 3000.

 

What has brought all this 'Your too young' stuff about is because people who are too young to get emotional about her in a strong way ARE seemingly getting very emotional about her. And it does look stupid and sort of weird. But Thatcher has been demonised very heavily, so it is easy to see how those with socialist or left-wing politics have come to understand her in a somewhat limited way and see her as embodifying everything they disagree with. In a sense, she did.

[Gladys]

Well you see, LDV, there are those that experienced, first hand Thatcherite policies, knew and experienced excatly how they impacted on every day life. They also saw the real strife and division caused by Maggie's policies and the removal of soul and emotion.

 

That will never be captured in any official record, but popular culture did (hence my reference to the proliferation of alternative comedy above).

 

You really do have to have lived through that period to even get a flavour of the social division. I lived in Leicester from 1979 to 1982 as a student; that area was relatively untouched in terms of division, but still not a gleaming example of the success of Thatcherite policies. I returned to studentdom in Sheffield for one year in 1985/86 and, my god, what I saw was dereliction on a massive scale. Sheffield, you know, the place they make knives and forks, everyone needs knives and forks, the place where they carefully engineer steel, set within seven hills like Rome. You know? The reality was appalling; during the day, there were mainly men taking small children around, presumably because they were unemployed and the wives were cleaning or doing whatever bitty job to support the family. Plenty of vagrants, sleeping where and when they could. There was a strong prostitution industry - perhaps that explained the men's day time role.

 

It was sad, very sad and I would hate to see that ever again as a direct result of a policy to starve out a particular sector or sectors. And that is truly what she set out to do and did.

[Lost Login]

I totally agree. I lived through Thatcher and as I said in an earlier post after 20 odd years I had forgotten what it was like to an extent living in the North West during that time. You remember main events but the general day to day you put to the back of your mind. Her death and this debate brings it all back.

 

The difference between experiencing it and observing it I think can be vividly demonstrated by the fact that she was far more popular abroad than in this country and in her 2nd & 3rd general election victories was helped hugely by the infighting in the labour party and the resulting SDP which helpd split the opposition

 

Reading the history can obvioulsy help you get an understanding and form an opinion but I think like any history or event unless you were there at the time and had first hand experience of the events you will always be at a disadvantage to those who were there. I understand about the first world war but I expect that to really understand the the horrors of living in a trench you have to have been there, in the cold, and mud being shot at. What was it like living in London during rationing and fear of nightly bombing? I can see poverty and people living in slums in India and Africa but what is it really like to live in that sort of misery.

 

In simple terms those who experience events first hand will generally always have a better feel/understanding than those who did not

 

Well you see, LDV, there are those that experienced, first hand Thatcherite policies, knew and experienced excatly how they impacted on every day life. They also saw the real strife and division caused by Maggie's policies and the removal of soul and emotion.

 

That will never be captured in any official record, but popular culture did (hence my reference to the proliferation of alternative comedy above).

 

You really do have to have lived through that period to even get a flavour of the social division.

[Albert Tatlock]

...and try paying a sudden ramp up to 15.5% interest on your mortgage, with your rates doubling too (poll tax/community charge) as it was around 1990/91.

[matty]

http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/comment/mark-steel-you-cant-just-shut-us-up-now-that-margaret-thatchers-dead-8568785.html

 

Found this an interesting take on the whole thing.

 

If someone robs your house, you don’t say: “I disagreed with the burglar’s policy, of tying me to a chair. But I did admire his convictions.”

[Thomas Jefferson]

Well you see, LDV, there are those that experienced, first hand Thatcherite policies, knew and experienced excatly how they impacted on every day life. They also saw the real strife and division caused by Maggie's policies and the removal of soul and emotion.

 

You really do have to have lived through that period to even get a flavour of the social division.

Gladys, maybe you are incapable of understanding things without "experiencing" them, but some of us are actually are capable of extrapolating from large volumes of information and forming appropriate conclusions.

[quilp]

 

 

Well you see, LDV, there are those that experienced, first hand Thatcherite policies, knew and experienced excatly how they impacted on every day life. They also saw the real strife and division caused by Maggie's policies and the removal of soul and emotion.

 

 

You really do have to have lived through that period to even get a flavour of the social division.

Gladys, maybe you are incapable of understanding things without "experiencing" them, but some of us are actually are capable of extrapolating from large volumes of information and forming appropriate conclusions.

There ain't nothing like the real thing...

[Lonan3]

 

Well you see, LDV, there are those that experienced, first hand Thatcherite policies, knew and experienced excatly how they impacted on every day life. They also saw the real strife and division caused by Maggie's policies and the removal of soul and emotion.

 

You really do have to have lived through that period to even get a flavour of the social division.

Gladys, maybe you are incapable of understanding things without "experiencing" them, but some of us are actually are capable of extrapolating from large volumes of information and forming appropriate conclusions.

It's called 'self-delusion.'

[paswt]

...and try paying a sudden ramp up to 15.5% interest on your mortgage, with your rates doubling too (poll tax/community charge) as it was around 1990/91.

You "done good" Albert my mortgage was 18.5% !

[paswt]

 

Well you see, LDV, there are those that experienced, first hand Thatcherite policies, knew and experienced excatly how they impacted on every day life. They also saw the real strife and division caused by Maggie's policies and the removal of soul and emotion.

 

You really do have to have lived through that period to even get a flavour of the social division.

Gladys, maybe you are incapable of understanding things without "experiencing" them, but some of us are actually are capable of extrapolating from large volumes of information and forming appropriate conclusions.

Ah but who compiled the "large volumes of information"? History is normally written by the "winners" , the "great and the good" and not those at the "coal face".

 

Would be useful if you declared your sources and stopped adopting a patronising attitude to those you feel your intellectual inferiors. .

 

Take a look at yourself son , it's possible that you are not as clever as you think.

[P.K.]

Found this an interesting take on the whole thing.

 

I like Mark Steel's weekly little Indy homily and he's certainly hit the spot.

 

I wonder if Private Eye will do a "commemorative" edition? I certainly hope so.