Slim Posted July 12, 2014 Share Posted July 12, 2014 http://www.ronpaul.com/on-the-issues/fiat-money-inflation-federal-reserve-2/Yes, that's just the kind of lunacy I was talking about, thanks! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bobbie Bobster Posted July 12, 2014 Share Posted July 12, 2014 ...dribbling youtube nutjobs... This topic's worth it just for that. Well done, sir. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hillshepherd Posted July 13, 2014 Share Posted July 13, 2014 According to studies, the spanish underground economy is about the average for europe. It's double the estimate for the UK, but behind the likes of Greece. This from the Visa report: The Spanish result, is close to the European average however. What does emerge very strikingly from the published figures is a three way split between western European countries, southern European countries and eastern European countries. Regarding southern European countries Spain’s results place the country in equal fourth place with Portugal behind Turkey, Greece and Italy with Greece and Italy having grey economies to the value of respectively 24 per cent and 21 per cent of GDP. Compare this to some typical figures in the Western European countries with the UK at 10 per cent,Germany 13 per cent in Austria at 8 per cent. Moving on to Eastern Europe we see Bulgaria at 31 per cent and Romania, Croatia, Lithuania and Estonia 28 per cent of the GDP’s respectively.Hard to find the actual post in this bloat, but:the only "real" store of value is gold bullion and land,no ifs buts or any other tripe bankers/lawyers would have you believe,people have been brainwashed that "fiat" money is actually worth anything,ffs its paper and worth what governments say its worth!Nonsense. see below mr nonsense the only "real" store of value is gold bullion and land,no ifs buts or any other tripe bankers/lawyers would have you believe,people have been brainwashed that "fiat" money is actually worth anything,ffs its paper and worth what governments say its worth!Nonsense. Yep. Gold is an arbitrary store of value or token of exchange. Really not so different from govt or bank issued money. Ok - it also has some industrial uses. But the supply of gold far exceeds any industrial demand. The value of gold is largely imaginary. The people who argue for gold are people who do not understand money (or the cyclical nature of economies). You can get a sense of gold being exactly like any other form of money if you look at the economic effects of the 19th century goldrushes. The quantity of gold in the system dramatically increased. This boosted the economy and was also inflationary - just the same as if the govt had started printing money. Leading, arguably, (certainly contributing) to a series of crashes, depressions etc. no different. No new actually value was added because gold has very little actual value. It's weird these days to hear people with no background using terms like fiat currency because they heard it on Max Keisser or some conspiracy forum. I hate the way in which conspiracy thinking has gone mainstream. do you know what fiat means??,no not the italian crap. The good thing about a gold-backed currency is that it's a finite resource so you can't have artificial bubbles with it. The mass importation of South American gold by Spain in the late 15th and early 16th century being an exception which is unlikely to be repeated now that we have global markets. The problem with our current system is that the governments or central banks can just print more and more money out of thin air, or even do it digitally, and then start charging interest on it. This is a form of stealth taxation which especially hits the poorest members of our society, the people on fixed incomes.Agree with pogo, posts like this seem increasingly common, rising with 'troother' youtube bollocks and conspiracy nutters getting far wider coverage. Why anyone would think a currency backed by a volatile gold price is better than via monetary policy is beyond me. Of course, there's no examples to prove this, as currencies are sensibly no longer based on gold standard. all currencies are linked to gold,ask mr fort knox or the bundesbank, There's one born every minute.Oh yeah, I'm the sheeple because I don't hang off dribbling youtube nutjobs every word. your either a "sheeple" as you describe yourself,or a government shill.no answer i see to mr wilson's shenanigans!!!!!!!!!. try this for size regarding VALUE a word i'm afraid you dont seem to comprehend,this is just 15 years mr sheeple. yes i believe people have been conned by there respective governments re the value of there "fiat" money,the proof is is incontrovertible,the yotube nutjobs you mention seem to be doing very well,thank you. PRICE COMPARISON 1999 - 2013ItemPrice in 1999Price in 2013% changeSource Milk (pint) 34p 46p 35% ONS Loaf of white sliced bread (800g) 51p £1.24 143% ONS Sugar (kg) 61p 98p 61% ONS Draught lager (pint) £1.93 £3.18 65% ONS Cigarettes (20 pack) £3.37 £7.98 137% ONS Unleaded petrol per litre 63.6p 132.4p 108% Petrol Prices House prices £93,000 £247,000 166% ONS Average salary £18,396 £26,000 41% ONS Average mortgage size (new loans) £54,100 £117,000 116% Council of Mortgage Lenders Weekly state pension £66.75 £110.50 66% The Pensions Advisory Service Level of UK consumer debt £565.4 billion £1426 billion 152% Bank of England Statistics Price of gold (per ounce) $280 (£191) $1282 (£801) 358% TiM Bottle of wine £3.55 £5.03 42% Nielsen Ford Focus (latest model) £15,500 £13,995 -10% Ford McDonald's Big Mac £1.90 £2.59 36% McDonald's Read more: http://www.thisismoney.co.uk/money/bills/article-1633409/Historic-inflation-calculator-value-money-changed-1900.html#ixzz37LE4OoZ2 Follow us: @MailOnline on Twitter | DailyMail on Facebook Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Truth Seeker Posted July 13, 2014 Share Posted July 13, 2014 . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Truth Seeker Posted July 13, 2014 Share Posted July 13, 2014 I'm not in favor of a Gold standard for currencies, but the fact is all the reserve currencies have failed in the past, the Petrodollar is just the latest one that's on its way out. There have been recessions in the past with a Gold Standard and without a Gold Standard. The reason bankers don't like Gold is because it can't be created out of nothing like the money system, not just Fractional Reserve Banking, but also "Quantitative Easing" which is just a nice way of saying, creating money out of nothing to buy bonds. Gold is useful for protecting yourself against inflation or a collapse in paper assets. 40 Central Banks Are Betting This Will Be The Next Reserve Currency. http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2014-04-08/40-central-banks-are-betting-will-be-next-reserve-currency Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hillshepherd Posted July 13, 2014 Share Posted July 13, 2014 I'm not in favor of a Gold standard for currencies, but the fact is all the reserve currencies have failed in the past, the Petrodollar is just the latest one that's on its way out. There have been recessions in the past with a Gold Standard and without a Gold Standard. The reason bankers don't like Gold is because it can't be created out of nothing like the money system, not just Fractional Reserve Banking, but also "Quantitative Easing" which is just a nice way of saying, creating money out of nothing to buy bonds. Gold is useful for protecting yourself against inflation or a collapse in paper assets. 40 Central Banks Are Betting This Will Be The Next Reserve Currency. http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2014-04-08/40-central-banks-are-betting-will-be-next-reserve-currency i am not advocating a return to the gold standard old bean,just pointing out the retention of value of gold as you point out the dollar has been debauched by the yanks and the rising nations are pissed of with it,by the way china has been buying gold in any market it can [renmimbi backing!] and not selling any of it home mined gold for a number of years now,i wonder why? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Slim Posted July 13, 2014 Share Posted July 13, 2014 TruthSeaker: what is your obsession with 'money out of nothing'? The money supply can and should be influenced. What exactly is wrong with that? What's your objection? do you know what fiat means??,no not the italian crap.Yes. What's your point?your either a "sheeple" as you describe yourself,or a government shill.no answer i see to mr wilson's shenanigans!!!!!!!!!.Hehe, that's the only two things I can possibly be because I think you're talking absolute rubbish? You could just be wrong, eh? all currencies are linked to gold,ask mr fort knox or the bundesbank,Huh? Their either fiat or commodity based. What is it? try this for size regarding VALUE a word i'm afraid you dont seem to comprehend,this is just 15 years mr sheeple. yes i believe people have been conned by there respective governments re the value of there "fiat" money,the proof is is incontrovertible,the yotube nutjobs you mention seem to be doing very well,thank you. What's the point you're trying to make? Prices are volatile, there's many reasons why prices change. In your lists you have things who's price has inflated due to taxes, supply, etc. The mortage line should be mortgage cost, not amount as it ignores interest. It's a meaningless list, unless there's some point my poor sheeple brain is missing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Truth Seeker Posted July 13, 2014 Share Posted July 13, 2014 TruthSeaker: what is your obsession with 'money out of nothing'? The money supply can and should be influenced. What exactly is wrong with that? What's your objection? do you know what fiat means??,no not the italian crap. Yes. What's your point?your either a "sheeple" as you describe yourself,or a government shill.no answer i see to mr wilson's shenanigans!!!!!!!!!.Hehe, that's the only two things I can possibly be because I think you're talking absolute rubbish? You could just be wrong, eh? all currencies are linked to gold,ask mr fort knox or the bundesbank,Huh? Their either fiat or commodity based. What is it? try this for size regarding VALUE a word i'm afraid you dont seem to comprehend,this is just 15 years mr sheeple. yes i believe people have been conned by there respective governments re the value of there "fiat" money,the proof is is incontrovertible,the yotube nutjobs you mention seem to be doing very well,thank you. What's the point you're trying to make? Prices are volatile, there's many reasons why prices change. In your lists you have things who's price has inflated due to taxes, supply, etc. The mortage line should be mortgage cost, not amount as it ignores interest. It's a meaningless list, unless there's some point my poor sheeple brain is missing. My objection to Fractional Reserve Banking is there will never be enough debt/money in the system to pay off the interest. Remember the money loaned out is not kept in the system when the loan is paid back, that is why eventually the system goes bust. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bobbie Bobster Posted July 13, 2014 Share Posted July 13, 2014 Where did you study economics, Truth Seeker? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Slim Posted July 13, 2014 Share Posted July 13, 2014 My objection to Fractional Reserve Banking is there will never be enough debt/money in the system to pay off the interest. Remember the money loaned out is not kept in the system when the loan is paid back, that is why eventually the system goes bust.But you also object to the fact that 'money is created out of nothing'. So it's not a closed system, like a ponzi. Like you said, the money loaned out was never really there, it's a product of the reserve calculation. The interest can be paid, because the debt is used to fuel commerce. Those commercial markets aren't closed, there's opportunties to earn more than you borrowed plus the interest; that's the point. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Truth Seeker Posted July 13, 2014 Share Posted July 13, 2014 My objection to Fractional Reserve Banking is there will never be enough debt/money in the system to pay off the interest. Remember the money loaned out is not kept in the system when the loan is paid back, that is why eventually the system goes bust. But you also object to the fact that 'money is created out of nothing'. So it's not a closed system, like a ponzi. Like you said, the money loaned out was never really there, it's a product of the reserve calculation. The interest can be paid, because the debt is used to fuel commerce. Those commercial markets aren't closed, there's opportunties to earn more than you borrowed plus the interest; that's the point. Yes you can earn by commerce, but the problem is this commerce if fueled by more debt, take Germany they are great at exporting cars, and what do most people do when they buy a car, they take out a loan, Germany will survive longer in this system because they get overseas customers in to debt, which helps pay off the German workers mortgage and the Car firms debt, but what about the people who got themselves in to debt, like in Spain, Greece, and others. Now Germany is finding it harder to sell there products, as the rest of the world has too much debt. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hillshepherd Posted July 13, 2014 Share Posted July 13, 2014 TruthSeaker: what is your obsession with 'money out of nothing'? The money supply can and should be influenced. What exactly is wrong with that? What's your objection? do you know what fiat means??,no not the italian crap.Yes. What's your point?> your either a "sheeple" as you describe yourself,or a government shill.no answer i see to mr wilson's shenanigans!!!!!!!!!. Hehe, that's the only two things I can possibly be because I think you're talking absolute rubbish? You could just be wrong, eh? all currencies are linked to gold,ask mr fort knox or the bundesbank,Huh? Their either fiat or commodity based. What is it? try this for size regarding VALUE a word i'm afraid you dont seem to comprehend,this is just 15 years mr sheeple. yes i believe people have been conned by there respective governments re the value of there "fiat" money,the proof is is incontrovertible,the yotube nutjobs you mention seem to be doing very well,thank you. What's the point you're trying to make? Prices are volatile, there's many reasons why prices change. In your lists you have things who's price has inflated due to taxes, supply, etc. The mortage line should be mortgage cost, not amount as it ignores interest. It's a meaningless list, unless there's some point my poor sheeple brain is missing. you are napoleon salmond in disguise,a master at evading or avoiding a straight answer to any q's put to you, #1 fiat [by decree] #2 no. #3 commodity = gold,dummy. #4 evasion,evasion,evasion, gold,a commodity has appreciated by 4x in 15 years,economics 101. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Slim Posted July 13, 2014 Share Posted July 13, 2014 Yes you can earn by commerce, but the problem is this commerce if fueled by more debt, take Germany they are great at exporting cars, and what do most people do when they buy a car, they take out a loan, Germany will survive longer in this system because they get overseas customers in to debt, which helps pay off the German workers mortgage and the Car firms debt, but what about the people who got themselves in to debt, like in Spain, Greece, and others. Now Germany is finding it harder to sell there products, as the rest of the world has too much debt.Right, so you've demonstrated yourself how it's not a closed system, that you can pay back the interest without running out of money. Not all commerce is debt leveraged either.you are napoleon salmond in disguise,a master at evading or avoiding a straight answer to any q's put to you,You asked me only one question, which is 'do you know what fiat means?'. I answered this quite clearly. What else am I avoiding or evading?#1 fiat [by decree]What? #2 no.What? #3 commodity = gold,dummy.Er, I know. And fiat is !gold. I was answering your point. Pay attention. #4 evasion,evasion,evasion, gold,a commodity has appreciated by 4x in 15 years,economics 101.What? Why don't you actually say what your conclusion is? I'm baffled on what point your trying to make. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pongo Posted July 13, 2014 Share Posted July 13, 2014 #4 evasion,evasion,evasion, gold,a commodity has appreciated by 4x in 15 years,economics 101. Against what ? And so what ? The value of food, fuel, land, apartments and art has dramatically increased over the same period also. Even the price of crappy old pine furniture. And most importantly - the value of stocks. That value increase is real - since it reflects real cultural and economic trends. What we call valuable. Bling has no intrinsic value. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hillshepherd Posted July 13, 2014 Share Posted July 13, 2014 Yes you can earn by commerce, but the problem is this commerce if fueled by more debt, take Germany they are great at exporting cars, and what do most people do when they buy a car, they take out a loan, Germany will survive longer in this system because they get overseas customers in to debt, which helps pay off the German workers mortgage and the Car firms debt, but what about the people who got themselves in to debt, like in Spain, Greece, and others. Now Germany is finding it harder to sell there products, as the rest of the world has too much debt.Right, so you've demonstrated yourself how it's not a closed system, that you can pay back the interest without running out of money. Not all commerce is debt leveraged either.>you are napoleon salmond in disguise,a master at evading or avoiding a straight answer to any q's put to you,You asked me only one question, which is 'do you know what fiat means?'. I answered this quite clearly. What else am I avoiding or evading?#1 fiat [by decree]What? #2 no.What? #3 commodity = gold,dummy.Er, I know. And fiat is !gold. I was answering your point. Pay attention. #4 evasion,evasion,evasion, gold,a commodity has appreciated by 4x in 15 years,economics 101.What? Why don't you actually say what your conclusion is? I'm baffled on what point your trying to make. point is your a lawyer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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