Apple 'among Largest Tax Avoiders In Us' - Senate Committee

[Wilbert Hickmann]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-22600984

 

Well how does that not surprise me, tax the minions to death whilst the wealthiest companies in the world pay pennies

 

This is a big issue at the next G8 where Mr Cameron said he had made "fighting the scourge of tax evasion and aggressive tax avoidance a priority." - well you've got my vote so far

 

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politics/david-cameron/10067378/David-Camerons-call-to-tackle-tax-avoidance.html

[ScotsAlan]

Apples second biggest market is China. Have you tried getting money out of China recently?

 

I reckon corporation tax should be finished. The Government get enough income tax and vat, why should they penalise a company for where they happen to set up?

 

Jobs pay for Government. Overtax the companies and the jobs will go.

 

Less taxation and more jobs I say :-)

[Wilbert Hickmann]

How can you overtax a company going out of it's way to pay none in the first place?

[Karellen]

Why do governments need all this tax? To pay for their own inefficiencies, their bloated civil services, their vanity projects, their wars and nuclear submarines. How many billions and billions of pounds, euros and dollars are wasted every year. The debate needs to move to the spending side of the balance sheet.

[ScotsAlan]

Why do governments need all this tax? To pay for their own inefficiencies, their bloated civil services, their vanity projects, their wars and nuclear submarines. How many billions and billions of pounds, euros and dollars are wasted every year. The debate needs to move to the spending side of the balance sheet.

Exactly.

 

They should justify what they do with the tax.

[Wilbert Hickmann]

But it's all to easy to force some of us to pay more re: public housing tenant rents, fuel tax, road tax etc. etc.

 

What I'm saying is, we have to pay so should they

[woolley]

What I'm saying is, we have to pay so should they

Quite right. And if some of them paid their whack then maybe the smaller business and the man in the street could pay less. Country by country reporting has to come. Actually agree with Murphy (spit) on that. This does not mean that government should have free rein to waste money. Fairer tax and less public sector profligacy.

[manxman1980]

But it's all to easy to force some of us to pay more re: public housing tenant rents, fuel tax, road tax etc. etc.

 

What I'm saying is, we have to pay so should they

 

What these companies are doing though is not actually illegal. Whilst not necessarily ethical what these companies are doing is exploiting a loophole that the Governments created in the first place. They are also playing countries off against each other by threatening to move offices, operating centres etc to other countries where the tax is lower. Again whilst that may not be ethical it is legal.

 

Governments are going to struggle to deal with multi-national organisations simply because that means they need more political alliances and to work for a common good. That is not something that necessarily goes down well with the general public. You can see that from the way the EU is deemed to be an interfering menace, disrupting the UK's competitiveness by many.

[woolley]

 

But it's all to easy to force some of us to pay more re: public housing tenant rents, fuel tax, road tax etc. etc.

 

What I'm saying is, we have to pay so should they

 

What these companies are doing though is not actually illegal. Whilst not necessarily ethical what these companies are doing is exploiting a loophole that the Governments created in the first place. They are also playing countries off against each other by threatening to move offices, operating centres etc to other countries where the tax is lower. Again whilst that may not be ethical it is legal.

 

Governments are going to struggle to deal with multi-national organisations simply because that means they need more political alliances and to work for a common good. That is not something that necessarily goes down well with the general public. You can see that from the way the EU is deemed to be an interfering menace, disrupting the UK's competitiveness by many.

 

It can be dealt with unilaterally by an economy as big as the UK for instance. Simply tell any company that if they want to operate in the economy and derive profit from doing so then they pay the tax. Simple as that before any upstreaming or royalty payments or other contrived accounting mechanism. If they don't like it then fine, they don't operate in the country. There will be enough tax paying businesses around to fill the vacuum of whatever it was they were going to sell.

[manxman1980]

It can be dealt with unilaterally by an economy as big as the UK for instance. Simply tell any company that if they want to operate in the economy and derive profit from doing so then they pay the tax. Simple as that before any upstreaming or royalty payments or other contrived accounting mechanism. If they don't like it then fine, they don't operate in the country. There will be enough tax paying businesses around to fill the vacuum of whatever it was they were going to sell.

 

How do you suggest the UK Government deal with online businesses? They can sell their goods and services without ever needing to be in the UK. Are you suggesting the Government filter/block websites? That sounds like a risky route to go down...

 

The other side is that some of these businesses create jobs in the UK. What Government is going to turn around to Apple, Amazon, Google and Starbucks and say that they cannot operate in the UK economy? The companies would simply threaten to close UK operations, stop paying the tax that they do now, and make a load of people redundant. Those people end up out of work and on benefits and guess who picks up the tab... Thats right the Government - now with even less income!

 

The only solution to this is international co-operation between nations but that seems a long way off.

[Albert Tatlock]

Why do governments need all this tax? To pay for their own inefficiencies, their bloated civil services, their vanity projects, their wars and nuclear submarines. How many billions and billions of pounds, euros and dollars are wasted every year. The debate needs to move to the spending side of the balance sheet.

This. Plus, governments cannot expect to have their globalisation cake and eat it. They have created borderless trade, yet expect those companies to pay tax based on borders, whilst global companies are now like ribbons flying in the stratosphere, only touching down where it is economic for them to do so.

 

Margaret Hodge is a socialist leech who has long been good at spending everyone else's money inefficiently. It is the spend model that needs to adjust. If it doesn't, more companies will simply leave the UK, and if prices (and especially VAT) continue to rise to fund the bloat spend model by taxing the consumer more, tax take will simply go down further.

 

These companies are employers (raises tax/NI and puts money back in the economy). Be grateful they still do that in the UK Mrs Hodge, but if you continue with this line (Evasion = Avoidance), they won't be for much longer.

[woolley]

 

It can be dealt with unilaterally by an economy as big as the UK for instance. Simply tell any company that if they want to operate in the economy and derive profit from doing so then they pay the tax. Simple as that before any upstreaming or royalty payments or other contrived accounting mechanism. If they don't like it then fine, they don't operate in the country. There will be enough tax paying businesses around to fill the vacuum of whatever it was they were going to sell.

 

How do you suggest the UK Government deal with online businesses? They can sell their goods and services without ever needing to be in the UK. Are you suggesting the Government filter/block websites? That sounds like a risky route to go down...

 

The other side is that some of these businesses create jobs in the UK. What Government is going to turn around to Apple, Amazon, Google and Starbucks and say that they cannot operate in the UK economy? The companies would simply threaten to close UK operations, stop paying the tax that they do now, and make a load of people redundant. Those people end up out of work and on benefits and guess who picks up the tab... Thats right the Government - now with even less income!

 

The only solution to this is international co-operation between nations but that seems a long way off.

 

Governments have ways of doing things if the will is there. The problem is that for far too long they have been in the thrall of global businesses. They are finally beginning to see that those businesses are simply shafting them. You are just spouting the same argument the companies do. I turn your question around. What business is going to turn its back on a market of 60 million rather than pay 21% of their profit in tax? Would they prefer to lose the other 79% as well? Call their bluff. They will not walk away. And if they do, there will be other decent tax paying businesses to take their place AND provide the employment.

[Albert Tatlock]

 

 

It can be dealt with unilaterally by an economy as big as the UK for instance. Simply tell any company that if they want to operate in the economy and derive profit from doing so then they pay the tax. Simple as that before any upstreaming or royalty payments or other contrived accounting mechanism. If they don't like it then fine, they don't operate in the country. There will be enough tax paying businesses around to fill the vacuum of whatever it was they were going to sell.

 

How do you suggest the UK Government deal with online businesses? They can sell their goods and services without ever needing to be in the UK. Are you suggesting the Government filter/block websites? That sounds like a risky route to go down...

 

The other side is that some of these businesses create jobs in the UK. What Government is going to turn around to Apple, Amazon, Google and Starbucks and say that they cannot operate in the UK economy? The companies would simply threaten to close UK operations, stop paying the tax that they do now, and make a load of people redundant. Those people end up out of work and on benefits and guess who picks up the tab... Thats right the Government - now with even less income!

 

The only solution to this is international co-operation between nations but that seems a long way off.

 

Governments have ways of doing things if the will is there. The problem is that for far too long they have been in the thrall of global businesses. They are finally beginning to see that those businesses are simply shafting them. You are just spouting the same argument the companies do. I turn your question around. What business is going to turn its back on a market of 60 million rather than pay 21% of their profit in tax? Would they prefer to lose the other 79% as well? Call their bluff. They will not walk away. And if they do, there will be other decent tax paying businesses to take their place AND provide the employment.

Surely the solution is a straight forward product tax, not complicated corporation taxes and herds of HMRC adminitsrators, accountants and lawyers chasing down every loophole? You buy the product, you pay the tax. You import it instead from e.g. a French online company and you have to pay the difference in tax?

 

Why not product tax? - ah yeah - the electorate will see just how much the government actually collect and waste, but this time instead of blaming the company for the increased price, consumers would directly see just how much the government are actually demanding. Customers will start asking awkward questions like 'why am I effectively paying twice the tax than other countries charge'?

[manxman1980]

Governments have ways of doing things if the will is there. The problem is that for far too long they have been in the thrall of global businesses. They are finally beginning to see that those businesses are simply shafting them. You are just spouting the same argument the companies do. I turn your question around. What business is going to turn its back on a market of 60 million rather than pay 21% of their profit in tax? Would they prefer to lose the other 79% as well? Call their bluff. They will not walk away. And if they do, there will be other decent tax paying businesses to take their place AND provide the employment.

 

Easy to say but who is going to blink first?

 

It looks like America are trying to get tough but even they have admitted Apple have not broken the law. Ireland have seemingly benefited from Apple in the midst of all this and it is unlikely the Government there would want to lose the income provided by the lower taxation Apple have paid there.

 

Albert has done a good job of explaining the problem - we have borderless companies operating globally yet they are taxed by countries who are competing with each other and are doing so based on national boundaries. How much has the Isle of Man benefitted from this situation in the past? We are able to attract business because we can set lower rates of tax and therefore increase their profits.

[The Old Git]

Surely the solution is a straight forward product tax, not complicated corporation taxes and herds of HMRC adminitsrators, accountants and lawyers chasing down every loophole? You buy the product, you pay the tax. You import it instead from e.g. a French online company and you have to pay the difference in tax?

 

 

Why not product tax? - ah yeah - the electorate will see just how much the government actually collect and waste, but this time instead of blaming the company for the increased price, consumers would directly see just how much the government are actually demanding. Customers will start asking awkward questions like 'why am I effectively paying twice the tax than other countries charge'?

 

Don't we already have that - called VAT?

 

I don't see how that would alter the amount of tax companies pay, or don't pay