Amadeus Posted May 25, 2005 Share Posted May 25, 2005 Just seen that the possible introduction of ID cards is headline news on all channels again this morning - could anyone kindly explain to me what all the fuzz is about? I'm from Germany (as most people probably know by now) and we have a form of ID cards for ages now - you get two documents there: Your normal passport, which looks pretty much like the British/Manx one and a so called "Personalausweis", which is a kind of laminated ID card and more handy to carry around than the big passport thing - it basically fits in your back pocket. By law, every German citizen is required to carry ID at all times, but it's one of the laws that nobody really cares about - if the cops stop you and you don't have your ID card with you, then the worst that can happen is that they give you a lift home to get it and I have never heard of this being done (for adults - drunk 14 year olds are a different matter - hi mum! ) Normally, your driving license or anything else will do. I just don't get what's the big deal? Big Brother state? We have that already - way more than you can imagine in your wildest dreams.. Restriction of your personal rights? How? Seems like a contradiction to me - on one side, they want to get rid of illegal immigrants and other "undesirables", but when a thing comes along that could help achieve this, everyone's crying out loud and the back-benchers are blocking it... The only thing that made me wonder even more was the supposed price tag: 85 quid for a passport and ID card? What are they made of? Silk with gold lining? Hoping for some enlightenmend here... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lonan3 Posted May 25, 2005 Share Posted May 25, 2005 http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/3657619.stm The link is from April when it was still Blunkett at the Home Office, but it still gives a reasonable overview of the subject. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave the Cardboard Box Posted May 25, 2005 Share Posted May 25, 2005 Opinion polls show that the public are very supportive of the idea. The fuss is because Labour backbenchers, the Tories and the Liberals want to give Tony Blair a good kicking for having the effrontery to get re-elected and this is the best chance they have to turn him over. Simple as that really. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Amadeus Posted May 25, 2005 Author Share Posted May 25, 2005 Opinion polls show that the public are very supportive of the idea. The fuss is because Labour backbenchers, the Tories and the Liberals want to give Tony Blair a good kicking for having the effrontery to get re-elected and this is the best chance they have to turn him over. Simple as that really. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> So am I right assuming that no-one would mind carrying around a little piece of plastic you'll never really be requird to produce ? Wonder if that would be introduced over here as well then.. And am still shaking my head at the 85 quid price tag... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Speckled Frost Posted May 25, 2005 Share Posted May 25, 2005 It's the cost of them that people are going to object to. People won't support ID cards once it stops being a theoretical concept and they actually have to fork out the cash. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lonan3 Posted May 25, 2005 Share Posted May 25, 2005 If it's done locally they should apply the same principle that they used when they distributed 'wheelie bins' - you get the first one free, and if you lose it you have to pay for a replacement. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rog Posted May 25, 2005 Share Posted May 25, 2005 Iknow that I've got a cheek but pease read this -- I don't think that it's paranoia on my part, I think it raises issues that many people are missing about ID cards and what goes with them. We now need ID cards in the UK and they need to be carried around at all times by everyone and I hate the thought of it. The biggest concern that I have is not the £87 or the need to carry the dam thing, it’s that the ID card is nothing more than a link between the individual ---- and a set of records that will be set up, maintained, and enlarged with time. If there’s one thing that the UK excels at it’s state secrecy and bureaucracy. Even the thought of being an entry on a new state database is almost no big deal, what is the big deal is what will be entered on that data base, who will enter it, who will view it, and how will the information be interpreted, that’s the big deal. Especially as we will need to show our ID for more and more things as time progresses – book a flight? show your ID. Travel by train? Show your ID. Visit your GP? Show your ID. Visit to the hospital? Show your ID. The list will grow and grow. And not just show it, wipe it. That way a record will also be made of who goes where, when, and with who. The problem? Take just one example. All that would need to happen is for someone to be on the same flight as an undesirable a few times and hey presto – their ‘status’ starts to change on the database. Travel to the same place that there was ‘trouble’ and again, deeper and deeper under suspicion. Those of us who have or who do use data bases to compile information from raw data know how easy it is to find what seems to be correlations only to later find they were due to errors in data entry, errors in definition of the search criteria, or simply meaningless fortuitous associations that just happened to exist. The same can and certainly will occur once the ID scheme as envisioned by the UK gets under way and the data bases are up and running. Although there may not be too many ‘knocks on the door in the early hours’ --- though there will be some, the more likely effect will be just difficulty in getting job offers for some kinds of work or difficulty in getting credit or the like. It will happen. Especially once the banks decide that you can use your ID card in the ATM’s or use your ID card as a credit card for Visa or Mastercard --- all for the very best of reasons ofcourse. And it will happen – it will have to. Not going down the ID card path is now not a credible option in view of the way that society has changed – especially under NuLabour who could have done so very much about national security of our National Borders and criminal population --- and didn’t. Doesn’t mean that we have to like having now to have ID cards and all that will be behind them though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
monkey_magic Posted May 25, 2005 Share Posted May 25, 2005 I've got enough 'things' that I carry around at the moment. I have enough trouble finding cash cards, wallet, phone, keys etc. And I certainly don't want to be told I have to have something with me at all times. I don't care what it is, it's not coming with me when I walk to the shop to get a paper, it's not coming with me when I go for a ride on my bike, it's not coming with me when I'm playing golf, and I'm certainly not going to carry it round with me when I'm robbing banks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rog Posted May 25, 2005 Share Posted May 25, 2005 I've got enough 'things' that I carry around at the moment. I have enough trouble finding cash cards, wallet, phone, keys etc. And I certainly don't want to be told I have to have something with me at all times. I don't care what it is, it's not coming with me when I walk to the shop to get a paper, it's not coming with me when I go for a ride on my bike, it's not coming with me when I'm playing golf, and I'm certainly not going to carry it round with me when I'm robbing banks. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Oh yes you are. maybe not in the immediate future but within 10 years. especially when even traffic wardens, CSO,s, and goodness know who else will be empowered to ask to see them - and they will. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WilDDog Posted May 25, 2005 Share Posted May 25, 2005 So am I right assuming that no-one would mind carrying around a little piece of plastic you'll never really be requird to produce ? Wonder if that would be introduced over here as well then.. It wouldn't worry me. I think it's a good idea. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lonan3 Posted May 25, 2005 Share Posted May 25, 2005 Iknow that I've got a cheek but pease read this -- I don't think that it's paranoia on my part, I think it raises issues that many people are missing about ID cards and what goes with them. We now need ID cards in the UK and they need to be carried around at all times by everyone and I hate the thought of it. The biggest concern that I have is not the £87 or the need to carry the dam thing, it’s that the ID card is nothing more than a link between the individual ---- and a set of records that will be set up, maintained, and enlarged with time. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> I agree with the examples you've already noted and there is one more that really concerns me. What happens when one of the people compiling the databank has a personal issue with someone? No matter how many checks and balances are in place the possibility of abusing the system will remain - a civil servant altering his victim's reasons for leaving a job, for example, or someone concerned with their finances making them look less creditworthy. Although I don't have anything to hide, the thought of having so much information about myself available for inspection makes me shudder. 'Sed quis custodiet ipsos custodes?' Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ButterflyMaiden Posted May 25, 2005 Share Posted May 25, 2005 Although there may not be too many ‘knocks on the door in the early hours’ --- though there will be some, the more likely effect will be just difficulty in getting job offers for some kinds of work or difficulty in getting credit or the like. It will happen. Especially once the banks decide that you can use your ID card in the ATM’s or use your ID card as a credit card for Visa or Mastercard --- all for the very best of reasons ofcourse. And it will happen – it will have to. Not going down the ID card path is now not a credible option in view of the way that society has changed – especially under NuLabour who could have done so very much about national security of our National Borders and criminal population --- and didn’t. Sorry to say this ... but what an absolutely laughable analysis. There are arguments to and for ID cards. But this sort of nonsense is not short of ridiculous Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lonan3 Posted May 25, 2005 Share Posted May 25, 2005 "New Belgian identity cards have been printed with spelling mistakes in a bid to fool forgers. 10:41 Wednesday 25th May 2005 The identity cards include the country name in the three official Belgian languages of French, German and Dutch as well as English. Instead of 'Belgien' in German, the ID cars incorrectly say 'Belgine' and instead of 'Belgium' in English, they say 'Belguim'. According to Luc Vanneste, of the government department in charge of issuing the cards, other errors will be printed on the card to further confound fraudsters. He said a similar system had proved successful in the United States." See, no problem! All we need is someone from the Manxpower forum to produce the cards and we're safe! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rog Posted May 25, 2005 Share Posted May 25, 2005 Although there may not be too many ‘knocks on the door in the early hours’ --- though there will be some, the more likely effect will be just difficulty in getting job offers for some kinds of work or difficulty in getting credit or the like. It will happen. Especially once the banks decide that you can use your ID card in the ATM’s or use your ID card as a credit card for Visa or Mastercard --- all for the very best of reasons ofcourse. And it will happen – it will have to. Not going down the ID card path is now not a credible option in view of the way that society has changed – especially under NuLabour who could have done so very much about national security of our National Borders and criminal population --- and didn’t. Sorry to say this ... but what an absolutely laughable analysis. There are arguments to and for ID cards. But this sort of nonsense is not short of ridiculous <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Don’t be too sure. Already data from Supermarket ‘loyalty cards’ are used by amongst other government departments the treasury and are ‘data mined’ to produce information about spending habits of populations and so extrapolate social groups within geographical areas and so forth and that’s just for starters. Some 20 years I was project leader in the development of a Knowledge Based System for the fault diagnosis of a particular design of very large and very complex Telephone Exchange. We built the KBS on a product that was also used at the time, though obviously populated with a different knowledge base, that was used to assist government strategists to determining high-value issues for the government to be seen to be addressing to keep public confidence high. In order to speed up our work we were granted permission to work along side people maintaining the government knowledge base, and you would be amazed at the sources that were used to gather ‘data’ from let alone the nature of the data itself and how it was subsequently interpreted. Things since then will not have become less divisive and nor will they in the future. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hangfire Posted May 25, 2005 Share Posted May 25, 2005 i stillcant beleive they think that forcing a charge of £85 quid down everybodies throats will be accepted i can foresee wholescale riots in the implementation of this card what would you do if you work minimum wage? you need to pay out £85 for yourself then the same again for your wife/husband..... that could be as much as your weekly wage after tax there is only one possible response to that....... there are already people on the street that are complaining about this or is the government being really clever? saying we have to pay £85 then when everybody kicks off they say no they will be free suddenly everybody stops complaining and the card is introduced without a fuss over loss of civil liberties???? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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