Roger Mexico Posted July 13, 2023 Share Posted July 13, 2023 8 minutes ago, Roxanne said: You’re comparing the demolition of Dandara’s houses to the Summerland disaster? I know you’re not one for debate and will do anything to prove your point but really? There's a valid point there. Particular building regulations may have changed, but the real problem with Summerland wasn't just the ones there (or the lack of them) but the way in which such regulations are made and enforced during construction and indeed in follow-up maintenance. The real problem is the culture in both government and industry that prioritises other things over safety, attacks anyone who tries to challenge this, and then disclaims all responsibility when things go wrong. So if housing build 20 years after Summerland now need replacing[1], it means that building and planning regulation/enforcement wasn't working. If lessons had been learned, they have been forgotten again. And if something like Grenfell could happen, they certainly weren't learned more widely. Except maybe that the establishment will always close ranks to protect those who have failed, and the worse the failing and more serious the consequences, the tighter those ranks will be. And when everyone responsible is finally dead, they might get round to apologising. [1] This is assuming it actually does and isn't just the usual people wanting lucrative contracts for their mates). 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gladys Posted July 13, 2023 Share Posted July 13, 2023 39 minutes ago, Roger Mexico said: There's a valid point there. Particular building regulations may have changed, but the real problem with Summerland wasn't just the ones there (or the lack of them) but the way in which such regulations are made and enforced during construction and indeed in follow-up maintenance. The real problem is the culture in both government and industry that prioritises other things over safety, attacks anyone who tries to challenge this, and then disclaims all responsibility when things go wrong. So if housing build 20 years after Summerland now need replacing[1], it means that building and planning regulation/enforcement wasn't working. If lessons had been learned, they have been forgotten again. And if something like Grenfell could happen, they certainly weren't learned more widely. Except maybe that the establishment will always close ranks to protect those who have failed, and the worse the failing and more serious the consequences, the tighter those ranks will be. And when everyone responsible is finally dead, they might get round to apologising. [1] This is assuming it actually does and isn't just the usual people wanting lucrative contracts for their mates). The Hansard report refers to certain regs being waived. These included the requirement that the materials for construction of external walls should have a fire resistance of 2 hours. However. It was not just a failing of design and construction, but also of operation of the facility where adequate training in emergency plans was not given; failure to raise the alarm with the fire station; staff not knowing who did what in such events; fire foors being chained etc. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Non-Believer Posted July 13, 2023 Share Posted July 13, 2023 5 minutes ago, Gladys said: The Hansard report refers to certain regs being waived. These included the requirement that the materials for construction of external walls should have a fire resistance of 2 hours. However. It was not just a failing of design and construction, but also of operation of the facility where adequate training in emergency plans was not given; failure to raise the alarm with the fire station; staff not knowing who did what in such events; fire foors being chained etc. Fire doors in the basement sports courts of the "new" Summerland were still chained shut in the early 90s.... 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WTF Posted July 13, 2023 Share Posted July 13, 2023 (edited) 5 hours ago, Roxanne said: sorted. Edited July 13, 2023 by WTF 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Numbnuts Posted July 13, 2023 Share Posted July 13, 2023 1 hour ago, Non-Believer said: Fire doors in the basement sports courts of the "new" Summerland were still chained shut in the early 90s.... no they weren’t . Fact… I worked there in those days . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
newaccount Posted July 13, 2023 Share Posted July 13, 2023 At the very least the verdicts should be changed Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gladys Posted July 13, 2023 Share Posted July 13, 2023 5 minutes ago, newaccount said: At the very least the verdicts should be changed The inquest verdicts? What would be the ramifications of that? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WTF Posted July 13, 2023 Share Posted July 13, 2023 10 minutes ago, Gladys said: The inquest verdicts? What would be the ramifications of that? maybe compensation could be claimed ?? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gladys Posted July 13, 2023 Share Posted July 13, 2023 3 minutes ago, WTF said: maybe compensation could be claimed ?? Possibly. Was any compensation ever paid? You also wonder if there was any public liability insurance. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ringy Rose Posted July 13, 2023 Share Posted July 13, 2023 I don’t understand the need for grovelling apologies 50 years down the line, and I certainly don’t see the need for a new enquiry. There’s been similar nonsense being spouted by some people about the Valley Parade fire of 1985, as though dredging up the past when everyone involved is dead or 90 makes any difference to anything. 2 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Non-Believer Posted July 13, 2023 Share Posted July 13, 2023 2 hours ago, Numbnuts said: no they weren’t . Fact… I worked there in those days . They were....I used to partake of a "little sporting exercise" down there of a Sunday evening and I and colleagues often used to look at them and ask how we would get out in the eventuality of...? This was the doors by the 5 a side pitches in the basement btw. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gladys Posted July 13, 2023 Share Posted July 13, 2023 2 minutes ago, Ringy Rose said: I don’t understand the need for grovelling apologies 50 years down the line, and I certainly don’t see the need for a new enquiry. There’s been similar nonsense being spouted by some people about the Valley Parade fire of 1985, as though dredging up the past when everyone involved is dead or 90 makes any difference to anything. TBF, I understand the need for some kind of contrition for the avoidable pain and suffering physical and mental that was caused. Very often that is all that is wanted, an acknowledgement that the victims actually matter. It is the other side of the coin to forgiveness. A memorial, big or small is not quite the same no matter what vociferous local campaigners may say. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gladys Posted July 13, 2023 Share Posted July 13, 2023 2 minutes ago, Non-Believer said: They were....I used to partake of a "little sporting exercise" down there of a Sunday evening and I and colleagues often used to look at them and ask how we would get out in the eventuality of...? This was the doors by the 5 a side pitches in the basement btw. If I remember correctly, and it was 50 years ago, the doors that were locked were the doors which opened onto the MER line below the pedestrian bridge. It was also the entrance to the Cave (?) and the concern was people getting in without paying the entry fee. Again, down to the operators. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ringy Rose Posted July 13, 2023 Share Posted July 13, 2023 9 minutes ago, Gladys said: Very often that is all that is wanted, an acknowledgement that the victims actually matter. Absolutely, but I’m unsure how a grovelling apology from a man who was five years old when it happened is going to achieve that. 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gladys Posted July 13, 2023 Share Posted July 13, 2023 9 minutes ago, Ringy Rose said: Absolutely, but I’m unsure how a grovelling apology from a man who was five years old when it happened is going to achieve that. It would be an apology from the IOM Government which, as we know, has been in continuous existence for over 1,000 years. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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