Summerland 40Th Anniversary

[woolley]

1 hour ago, Roger Mexico said:

Of course legally "the IOM Government" doesn't and never has existed.  There are only individual Departments, but no single legal entity.   So a formal apology might not be possible.  Which is terribly convenient.

It was operated by Douglas Corporation, wasn't it? So perhaps an apology by them. Completely meaningless to apologise now in any case for something that happened half a century ago. Just more of the same Cameronesque virtue signaling fetish of apologising for history before you were born which is extremely disingenuous if you think about it. Whoever was culpable in this will be dead already or not far off.

[Shake me up Judy]

I believe the MP who raised it in the Commons was lobbied to do so by the surviving family of Summerland victims in his constituency. It isn't something that he's initiated entirely on his own.

[Non-Believer]

16 minutes ago, Shake me up Judy said:

I believe the MP who raised it in the Commons was lobbied to do so by the surviving family of Summerland victims in his constituency. It isn't something that he's initiated entirely on his own.

And if the IoM doesn't respond to these requests in this high-level raising of the subject (in the fashion being asked).....what does this do to the Island's general reputation in the view of the UK public?

[Roger Mexico]

5 hours ago, Gladys said:

It is if you wanted a pedant's way out.  My point was that Alf is not apologising on his own behalf, despite being 5 at the time,  but obo the IOMG.  It was a facile argument. 

Of course it is. But the government has a complete hatred of even the suggestion of the idea of corporate responsibility.  Even the thought that individual officials might ever do something wrong will only be admitted when confronted with overwhelming (and probably legal-backed) proof.  Extending the responsibility more than that, admitting that the system itself was flawed in specific ways, undermines the idea of governmental infallibility that is at the core of their belief system.  At most it's the fault of a few safely-departed individuals not following the rules.

However, even if an apology is extracted, it will be no more than words.  Look at the way they only recently apologised to Ranson and yet are still continuing to refuse to engage with her team properly to try to drag things out.

[Gladys]

1 hour ago, Roger Mexico said:

Of course it is. But the government has a complete hatred of even the suggestion of the idea of corporate responsibility.  Even the thought that individual officials might ever do something wrong will only be admitted when confronted with overwhelming (and probably legal-backed) proof.  Extending the responsibility more than that, admitting that the system itself was flawed in specific ways, undermines the idea of governmental infallibility that is at the core of their belief system.  At most it's the fault of a few safely-departed individuals not following the rules.

However, even if an apology is extracted, it will be no more than words.  Look at the way they only recently apologised to Ranson and yet are still continuing to refuse to engage with her team properly to try to drag things out.

Are they refusing to engage with Ranson's team?  I know they were but  am not sure what the status is of the revived claim.  

[Roger Mexico]

1 hour ago, Gladys said:

Are they refusing to engage with Ranson's team?  I know they were but  am not sure what the status is of the revived claim.  

There was a piece on Gef yesterday which read very much like it.  And of course Moulton's latest struggles suggest there's not much change in attitude across the civil service.

[Langweilig]

A Summerland survivor - fifty years on.

https://www.itv.com/news/utv/2023-07-25/dromore-woman-who-survived-summerland-fire-recalls-rescue-50-years-on

[Gladys]

She is a brave woman.  Well done Ruth. X

[Albert Tatlock]

On 7/13/2023 at 11:57 AM, Albert Tatlock said:

There would surely be massive legal and, no doubt, compensation cost implications if the results of the original inquiry were to be overturned?

And...as has been mentioned most of those involved in the building process are now likely dead or dribbling in a nursing home somewhere - likely unable to defend themselves or pay any price for a reversed decision.

Apologising for your ancestors seems to be becoming a more frequent request. Lessons were learned and rules changed - but that was then, this is now, and sometimes the past should just stay there IMO.

It will be interesting to see how Alf handles this one. Personally, I would not reopen this Pandora's box and would keep to the ceremony and what was learned. 

Alf Cannan pushing back on any ideas of reopening inquest/inquiry...

https://www.manxradio.com/news/isle-of-man-news/remembering-summerland-fifty-years-on/

[Shake me up Judy]

Too late to establish and prosecute any potential criminality; but a full 'truth and reconciliation' trial might bring some closure to the living victims of this awful tragedy. I can understand Alf's reluctance though. We've just spent millions on the Ranson trial and Abbotswood will probably be another. 

[Weliveinhope]

funny how things dont seem to have changed much in government in 50 odd years. Still sweeping as much as they can under the carpet while protecting their own.

 

[Albert Tatlock]

Just now, Shake me up Judy said:

Too late to establish and prosecute any potential criminality; but a full 'truth and reconciliation' trial might bring some closure to the living victims of this awful tragedy. 

'Trial'? Isn't that the same thing effectively?

50 years on....I think he should stick to his approach.

[Shake me up Judy]

1 minute ago, Albert Tatlock said:

'Trial'? Isn't that the same thing effectively?

50 years on....I think he should stick to his approach.

I think that's the point of a truth and reconciliation trial/hearing. It's full costume, bells and whistles. A judgement is delivered but stops short of convictions and sentencing. 

[Albert Tatlock]

3 minutes ago, Shake me up Judy said:

I think that's the point of a truth and reconciliation trial/hearing. It's full costume, bells and whistles. A judgement is delivered but stops short of convictions and sentencing. 

You'd be talking £5m in the cost of that alone IMO...probably a 50 day inquiry, with lawyers having to work through all the associated paperwork from scratch, along with dozens of victims and relatives appearing.

It would turn to simply being an 'Emotionfest', with most of those involved with the building and architecture now long dead or doolallyand and unable to provide any defence....regardless of whether there was any defence or not.

If we were talking about the 10 or 20 year anniversary...maybe...but we are not.

Like it or not, this is now history.

[philwebs]

The Summerland Disaster | A Short Documentary | Fascinating Horror

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4hRNhosh8Lk