French Eu Vote

[Ant]

I think that the people of Holland and France might well be voting against the EU itself. I'm aware that both of these countries are viewed as historically "pro Europe", especially France. It is really just a guess though, no-one knows what is in the minds of the voters but I would doubt that it is a vote against the national governments.

 

I am anti EU. I think that what the British people voted for initially- the European Economic Community isn't what they are seeing now. They are seeing a body which can issue guidelines on the maximum number of working hours, on the disposal of asbestos etc. I also think that the talk of being competitive is a bit misguided. If there are to be rules for all members states on the numbers of hours workers in each are allowed to work that, in my judgement, is not competitive. I feel that countries should be competing with each other and if a nations government wants to allow its workers to work longer hours than another nations government then so be it. It will either be rewarded with greater productivity than its neighbours or less productivity as some Unions would have us believe.

 

I also feel that the Isle of Man should not have to follow any EU rules or guidelines.

[Karellen]

My brother in Holland believes that the vote is a reaction to the borders of europe spreading too widely. When the european project started after ww2 its aim was to ensure that france and germany would remain friends and allies, and to prevent further war. In that extent it has been successful.

 

What is now happening is that the borders of europe are being pushed too wide. We now have countries on the fringe of what is geographically europe (such as the baltic states and cyprus) with proposals to push the boundrys even further east, into Romania and Turkey. This is what frightens mainland europeans. The next major question for the politicians is does europe let Romania and Turkey into the club, which seems inevitable? If it does, is the next wave of expansion Ukraine, Belarus, etc who will be clamouring to join in 10/15/20 years.

 

Where does europe draw the line? Perhaps now is the time for the politicians to say enough expansion. I see the people of europe (those given a vote anyway) as pulling back to their national identities (as happened in the breakup of Yugoslavia) rather than mandating a push towards an ever growing federal europe.

[Dave the Cardboard Box]

The 'No' votes are not against the proposed Constitution, which when you read it is 95% procedural and and just gives structures so that the enlarged community can actually function.

 

The vote was against the idea of an enlarged Europe - the French in particular played on the "Polish plumber" stories - fear of losing jobs to those pesky foreigners.

 

No doubt if the UK had a referendum that is what the arguments would be about, not about the Constitution, which is honestly a fairly innocuous document.

 

The Constitution is necessary just so that the day to day functioning of the 25 countries can continue in a smoother way.

 

It is just that this is the first time anyone has had a chance to show their general disquiet about them pesky foreigners invading.

 

I'm going to Prague* next week to redress the balance.

 

 

*with a blow torch and a wrench.

[Rog]

The various referendum are being seen as being an opportunity for people to make their mark on many issues at once and include national issues such as the unpopularity on Chirac amongst many French people who simply can’t stand him.

 

A ‘sign – up’ to the proposed EU constitution is almost a secondary consideration.

 

In the case of Holland there is deep dislike of the impact of the Euro and how the introduction of the Euro, as with decimalisation in the UK, has been used to jack up prices. There is also deep dislike regarding immigration and now that dislike has spread to immigration in principle as well as in numbers as the Dutch see their national identity being eroded (and quote England as an example to be avoided at all costs where National identity is being swamped!). In addition a common theme amongst the Western EU nations there is marked dislike regarding the expansion of the EU with the prospect of Turkey joining as being the last straw. As a result a vote against in the Referendum is a vote against the current EU strategies.

 

In my opinion the EU should retrench to becoming a core EU of the original states as a United States of Europe. The original founders do have a very great deal in common with each other and the other ‘new’ EU states being given ‘associate’ membership only.

 

That is not just my personal opinion, but one that is now being given more and more credence throughout the original member states judging from various news stories and on talking with a few people particularly in Germany, Holland, and France that I know well

 

Interestingly they see the UK as a disruptive element and that DeGaul was absolutely correct in his repeated veto of Britain’s membership. Considering the UK’s influence and interference I totally agree.

[Rog]

Rog, just to clarify, are you suggesting that the EU should consist of the original members, i.e France, Germany, Italy and the Benelux countries, with the others becoming some kind of 'associate' members or trading partners?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Yes, though without being bound by any EU leguislation beyond trading standards.

[When Skies Are Grey]

Is Germany due to have a referendum? Jusst curious as to how the German politicians would want that vote to turn out?

[Rog]

Is Germany due to have a referendum?  Jusst curious as to how the German politicians would want that vote to turn out?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

There is to be no referendum planned in Germany. The EU constitution is to be ratified by the Parliament

[The Old Git]

Is Germany due to have a referendum?  Jusst curious as to how the German politicians would want that vote to turn out?

 

Germany can't hold a referendum, something to do with Hitler.

[The Old Git]

In the case of Holland there is deep dislike of the impact of the Euro and how the introduction of the Euro

 

I think in both cases so far it's the first time people have had any say in any of the issues involving the EU. Were any of them asked about the Euro? I don't think the UK citizens have been asked about any issue regarding Europe for at least 30 years

[The Old Git]

There is to be no referendum planned in Germany.  The EU constitution is to be ratified by the Parliament

 

Didn't the ratify it on the Friday before the French referendum on Sunday in a cynical attempt to boost the yes vote?

[simon]

Germany can't hold a referendum, something to do with Hitler.

 

Mr Hitler was very much in favour of an expanded and united Europe. Possibly less keen on constitutions.

[Rog]

Germany can't hold a referendum, something to do with Hitler.

 

Mr Hitler was very much in favour of an expanded and united Europe. Possibly less keen on constitutions.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

 

No he wasn't. he was very keen on an expanded Nazi Germany and the rest of Europe under Nazi German domination

 

But in any case - that was 60 years ago. When will the Brits EVER loose their fixation on events undertaken by people now mostly long dead that although of historical interest are largely irrelevant to the Europe of today?

[Darth Vader]

But in any case - that was 60 years ago. When will the Brits EVER loose their fixation on events undertaken by people now mostly long dead that although of historical interest are largely irrelevant to the Europe of today?

 

I agree on that point but my 83 year old dad hates Germans to this day.

 

And when one reads about the toleration of facist groups in Germany today I cannot have some sympathy with him.

 

As a Manxman but also a Brit, I distrust the French and the Germans.

 

The EEC was created to stop the feuds in Europe and to create a trading club.

 

If it remains that then like Lonan 3 it has my vote.. oh sorry I live on a colony so I have no vote yessir, tip my cap to her Majesty Mrs Mountbattenburg.

 

As for a United States of Europe? Forget it.

 

Manx I may be but British also. We can paddle our own canoe and make friends with whatever country we want.

 

Any threat to the sovereignty of Britain by other countries should be thwarted.

 

BTW. Tony Blair is a dickhead.

[The Old Git]

But in any case - that was 60 years ago. When will the Brits EVER loose their fixation on events undertaken by people now mostly long dead that although of historical interest are largely irrelevant to the Europe of today?

 

From http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/3956285.stm

 

He was referring to the fact that the German constitution has no provision for referendums.

 

It was drawn up in 1949, when memories were still fresh of how the Nazis twice used plebiscites for aggressive purposes - for the remilitarisation of the Rhineland in 1936 and the swallowing-up of Austria in 1938.

 

Germany would have to change its own constitution in order to be able to hold a referendum

[ButterflyMaiden]

But in any case - that was 60 years ago. When will the Brits EVER loose their fixation on events undertaken by people now mostly long dead that although of historical interest are largely irrelevant to the Europe of today?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Not that irrelevant unfortunately. A great deal of Europeon policy is driven by traumatic events which took place during WW2. This is also true of the "meta" legal system which informs individual rights and freedoms in the majority of Europe. Most people miss the point on this one .. rights and freedoms go hand in hand with constraints and it is the constraints which Europeons are concerned about.

Back on thread .. it now seems very unlikely the constitution will be ratified .at least not without causing a major rift in the EU ... and this would put at risk all the gains made in the last few decades.