Thomas Jefferson Posted January 21, 2014 Author Share Posted January 21, 2014 It's like asking why the Basques don't re-establish themselves in Timbuktu. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lxxx Posted January 21, 2014 Share Posted January 21, 2014 When at university I had the pleasure of sharing a house for a year with a Jewish lad and we used to (along with copious amounts of cheap ale) discuss all kinds of stuff into the early hours. He told me of the difference between good, peace-loving jews of the Torah and the Zionist, racist jews of The Talmud. Of how many jews disassociated themselves with the merging of political Zionism and religious Talmudism (is that even a word?) and how many had been assassinated for trying to oppose the Zionist state before it came into being. I found the whole thing fascinating and did a lot of reading on the matter and also became friendly with many of his family and friends. The jewish people (like good people of any religious persuasion) want nothing more than a peaceful life and abhor murder in their name. Which is why I object when jews say there isn't any difference between anti-Semitism and anti-Zionism, as many jews are anti-Zionist (and not all Zionists are jews) but they are then smeared with accusations of being a 'self hater' as crazy as that sounds, so you can't win. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
manxman1980 Posted January 21, 2014 Share Posted January 21, 2014 Switch off Saville's BBC and open up an archaeology or history book FFS. Perhaps that is why I asked a question here? To find out a different view. Essentially though what you are saying is that the State of Israel is a false construct created from part of the old British Empire? I also believe that being 'Jewish' is not being a part of a race of people but more a culture/religion? Much in the same way that being Christain or Muslim is not a race. Also using your statement that there was never a people called the Palestinians surely the same applies to Israeli's? Frankly I have no issue with Israeli's, Palestinians, Jews or Muslims but I am just amazed that we are surprised by the problems caused in that part of the world by the decision to create a State of Israel. Especially with Northern Ireland right on the doorstep of Britain! How many years has that been rumbling on for now? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thomas Jefferson Posted January 21, 2014 Author Share Posted January 21, 2014 Perhaps that is why I asked a question here? To find out a different view. Essentially though what you are saying is that the State of Israel is a false construct created from part of the old British Empire? I feel I'm being deliberately trolled here. All STATES are artificial constructs. However, in the case of Israel, it is not a construct created from part of the British Empire; it's a re-establishment of a nation that already existed since biblical times. Its Jewish residents didn't just spontaneously show up in 1948; there has been a continuous Jewish presence there, especially in Jerusalem, for 4,000 years. Even despite repeated forced expulsions and massacres of the Jewish community, they've always been there. You seem to be under the bizarre belief that there were no Jews there in 1947 and that millions just randomly showed up from elsewhere in 1948. Complete bollocks. In addition to a continuous presence there since ancient times, even Jews in the Diaspora have been returning in every generation ever since. A lot of the Jews expelled from Spain in 1492 returned to Israel. I also believe that being 'Jewish' is not being a part of a race of people but more a culture/religion? Much in the same way that being Christain or Muslim is not a race. The Jews are a tribe / nation, not a race. Also using your statement that there was never a people called the Palestinians surely the same applies to Israeli's? It was the Romans who killed millions of Jews in Judaea then changed the name of Judaea to "Palestina" and the name of Jerusalem to Aelia Capitolina to try to destroy Jewish identification with the land. The term was then used again by the British. "Palestinian" is the imperial construct. The first mention of "Israel" is in the Memeptah Stele in Egypt, written c.1200 BC !!! Frankly I have no issue with Israeli's, Palestinians, Jews or Muslims but I am just amazed that we are surprised by the problems caused in that part of the world by the decision to create a State of Israel. Especially with Northern Ireland right on the doorstep of Britain! How many years has that been rumbling on for now? The state of Israel was a national liberation, a re-establishment. It wasn't "created", as you put it. They gained independence from British rule just like India. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thomas Jefferson Posted January 21, 2014 Author Share Posted January 21, 2014 He told me of the difference between good, peace-loving jews of the Torah and the Zionist, racist jews of The Talmud. Oh dear. Where to even begin???? Of how many jews disassociated themselves with the merging of political Zionism and religious Talmudism (is that even a word?) and how many had been assassinated for trying to oppose the Zionist state before it came into being. I found the whole thing fascinating and did a lot of reading on the matter and also became friendly with many of his family and friends. The jewish people (like good people of any religious persuasion) want nothing more than a peaceful life and abhor murder in their name. I'd really stop randomly typing the word Talmud into every sentence, as if it's some sinister bogey man. Also, the term "Zionism" has also changed over the years. It used to mean something largely different (more closely aligned with the socialist anarchist kibbutz movement) from what it has come to mean today (right-wing imperialism).. Of course there was religious opposition to political Zionism in the early years but most normal people have sort of consigned themselves to the fact that Israel does now exist and you can't hit the re-wind button and undo it. So while they may not agree with Israeli policy in relation to so-called Palestinians, or instance, they're not jumping up and down challenging Israel's right to exist. It does exist. Normal people have accepted that fact and moved on. Which is why I object when jews say there isn't any difference between anti-Semitism and anti-Zionism, as many jews are anti-Zionist (and not all Zionists are jews) but they are then smeared with accusations of being a 'self hater' as crazy as that sounds, so you can't win. Of course there's a difference if, by "anti-Zionism", you refer to its current popular meaning. Opposition to specific Israeli policies or to specific operations does not make someone an anti-semite. Opposing Israel's very right to exist does make someone an anti-semite in my books, and that's what I've seen on this thread. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mojomonkey Posted January 21, 2014 Share Posted January 21, 2014 What Sharon did could be called a "necessary evil" too. Israel is in an existential war with hostile enemies all around her. How many Israelis have been brutally murdered by the Arabs over the years? Do you expect them to keep turning the other cheek or to fight back? Also, their enemy are without honour and deliberately position themselves in locations with large numbers of civilians and are on record using them as human shields and their so-called civilians deliberately get in the way as wannabe martyrs. Would you consider them a necessary evil? Best way to deal with bullies is punch them back. Can you answer my early question, does your reply mean yes you consider them to be a necessary evil? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rhumsaa Posted January 21, 2014 Share Posted January 21, 2014 weren't you a big norm chomsky fan TJ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thomas Jefferson Posted January 21, 2014 Author Share Posted January 21, 2014 weren't you a big norm chomsky fan TJ? I still am. Noam Chomsky is the bee's knees. I just don't understand why everyone automatically assumes I'm some sort of hardline Israel supporter. All I've actually done is defend their right to exist and praised the acumen of Ariel Sharon as a military tactician. I didn't say he should win nice person of the century award FFS. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thomas Jefferson Posted January 21, 2014 Author Share Posted January 21, 2014 Can you answer my early question, does your reply mean yes you consider them to be a necessary evil? I'm not in possession of all the facts that Ariel Sharon was, so can't possibly answer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mojomonkey Posted January 21, 2014 Share Posted January 21, 2014 Can you answer my early question, does your reply mean yes you consider them to be a necessary evil? I'm not in possession of all the facts that Ariel Sharon was, so can't possibly answer. That's a real cop out. Still, I wouldn't expect anything less. Note to self - Learn to resist the temptation to get involved in obvious troll, attention seeking topics. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thomas Jefferson Posted January 21, 2014 Author Share Posted January 21, 2014 Most of the Jewish Israelis were refugees from ARAB countries. There were more Jews kicked out of Arab countries who fled to Israel than there were Arabs who fled Israel. Yet Israel welcomed its refugees, while the surrounding Arab countries refused to integrate its refugees. It should have been like India/Pakistan and just swapped populations, but the Arabs apparently don't think much of the "Palestinians" so they keep them in concentration eh I mean refugee camps. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thomas Jefferson Posted January 21, 2014 Author Share Posted January 21, 2014 Manx people are probably only 8% of the Isle of Man but it's still our island and Manx people across the globe are welcome to return. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thomas Jefferson Posted January 21, 2014 Author Share Posted January 21, 2014 "Country of birth" is no way of figuring out who's Manx. Being born here doesn't make you Manx. Anyway, this topic is too depressing so I'm not interested in continuing it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thomas Jefferson Posted January 21, 2014 Author Share Posted January 21, 2014 N/A Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mojomonkey Posted January 21, 2014 Share Posted January 21, 2014 "Country of birth" is no way of figuring out who's Manx. Being born here doesn't make you Manx. Anyway, this topic is too depressing so I'm not interested in continuing it. N/A Wow, you lasted all of 15 minutes. Self restraint clearly isn't one of your strengths. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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