Shake me up Judy Posted January 21, 2014 Share Posted January 21, 2014 How the f**k can you compare Sharon with Churchill ? You're a strange bunch of guys T.J. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
manxman1980 Posted January 21, 2014 Share Posted January 21, 2014 TJ I am not trolling anyone. I am just becoming more interested in the views and opinions expressed about Jews and Israel. Anti-semitism has been discussed in the media a lot recently and particularly in football with Tottenham Hotspur and also the quenelle gesture by Nicolas Anelka. My understanding is much more that which Lonan put forward. It seems odd to me that religious beliefs and 'race' have become so intertwined. I struggle to think of many other religious groups who have been stereotyped to the extent of the Jewish. I am also amazed at how often Jews are alleged to be part of a controlling elite in some theories banded around. History seems to paint the Jews as outcasts yet the dominate religion in the UK has Jesus of Nazareth, a Jew, as a central character. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thomas Jefferson Posted January 21, 2014 Author Share Posted January 21, 2014 It seems odd to me that religious beliefs and 'race' have become so intertwined. The Jews began first as a tribe. "Jew" is a colloquialism for a Hebrew or Israelite. Jews are the Israelites or Hebrews mentioned in, and who were the authors of, the Bible. Jews still are a nation, or commonwealth, rather than a religion or a race. Some scholars just skip all these terms and refer to Jews as a "civilisation". I struggle to think of many other religious groups who have been stereotyped to the extent of the Jewish. It began with Christianity with its accusations of being in league with the devil, witchcraft, and deicide; but modern anti-semitism began when the economy shifted from agrarian to mercantile and financial. For over a thousand years, the Jews of Europe had been barred from entry in most professions or from owning land, so they were pushed into finance. In fact, they were often forced to be tax collectors to deliberately incite hatred of them. Some Jews, such as Shylock in the Merchant of Venice, made their living through lending, although in reality these people often supported entire Jewish communities who depended on them for sustenance as they couldn't work in other professions themselves -- so you had a few rich Jews maintaining thousands of poor Jews. When the economy shifted to finance, these Jews were in a position to prosper. 20th century anti-semitism has largely been due to the prevalence of Jews in the left-wing political movements. I am also amazed at how often Jews are alleged to be part of a controlling elite in some theories banded around. That all started as wartime propaganda during the Napoleonic War because the Rothschilds were funding the British war effort. They were also accused of funding the Confederates in the US Civil War. Every time there was a war, each other side accused the other of being in league with the Rothschilds. The two world wars were no exception. History seems to paint the Jews as outcasts yet the dominate religion in the UK has Jesus of Nazareth, a Jew, as a central character. Jesus of Nazareth was largely "de-judaised" very early on in Christian history. He was regarded as God Incarnate, not a Jew. In fact, the Church likewise de-judaised the Jews of the Old Testament and characterised post-biblical Jews as being reprobates who had gone astray and were no longer Israelites but were children of the devil. The Church was heralded as the "New Israel". On the other hand, Judas was conveniently portrayed as a Jew still. It was thanks to Renaissance humanism that the Hebrew roots of Christianity were rediscovered, but it's only in more recent years that the humanity (and therefore Jewishness) of Jesus has been "re-discovered" and become a focus of scholarship. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mojomonkey Posted January 21, 2014 Share Posted January 21, 2014 TJ - I thought you found this topic too depressing and weren't interested in continuing it? You can't help yourself can you? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thomas Jefferson Posted January 21, 2014 Author Share Posted January 21, 2014 TJ - I thought you found this topic too depressing and weren't interested in continuing it? You can't help yourself can you? I was referring to the topic of the Arab-Israeli conflict. It's a never ending load of bollocks. I'm more than happy to talk about general judaica. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lxxx Posted January 21, 2014 Share Posted January 21, 2014 It seems odd to me that religious beliefs and 'race' have become so intertwined. The Jews began first as a tribe. "Jew" is a colloquialism for a Hebrew or Israelite. Jews are the Israelites or Hebrews mentioned in, and who were the authors of, the Bible. Jews still are a nation, or commonwealth, rather than a religion or a race. Some scholars just skip all these terms and refer to Jews as a "civilisation". I struggle to think of many other religious groups who have been stereotyped to the extent of the Jewish. It began with Christianity with its accusations of being in league with the devil, witchcraft, and deicide; but modern anti-semitism began when the economy shifted from agrarian to mercantile and financial. For over a thousand years, the Jews of Europe had been barred from entry in most professions or from owning land, so they were pushed into finance. In fact, they were often forced to be tax collectors to deliberately incite hatred of them. Some Jews, such as Shylock in the Merchant of Venice, made their living through lending, although in reality these people often supported entire Jewish communities who depended on them for sustenance as they couldn't work in other professions themselves -- so you had a few rich Jews maintaining thousands of poor Jews. When the economy shifted to finance, these Jews were in a position to prosper. 20th century anti-semitism has largely been due to the prevalence of Jews in the left-wing political movements. I am also amazed at how often Jews are alleged to be part of a controlling elite in some theories banded around. That all started as wartime propaganda during the Napoleonic War because the Rothschilds were funding the British war effort. They were also accused of funding the Confederates in the US Civil War. Every time there was a war, each other side accused the other of being in league with the Rothschilds. The two world wars were no exception. History seems to paint the Jews as outcasts yet the dominate religion in the UK has Jesus of Nazareth, a Jew, as a central character. Jesus of Nazareth was largely "de-judaised" very early on in Christian history. He was regarded as God Incarnate, not a Jew. In fact, the Church likewise de-judaised the Jews of the Old Testament and characterised post-biblical Jews as being reprobates who had gone astray and were no longer Israelites but were children of the devil. The Church was heralded as the "New Israel". On the other hand, Judas was conveniently portrayed as a Jew still. It was thanks to Renaissance humanism that the Hebrew roots of Christianity were rediscovered, but it's only in more recent years that the humanity (and therefore Jewishness) of Jesus has been "re-discovered" and become a focus of scholarship. That is but only one perspective of the history of the Jews. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thomas Jefferson Posted January 21, 2014 Author Share Posted January 21, 2014 /facepalm Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rhumsaa Posted January 21, 2014 Share Posted January 21, 2014 weren't you a big norm chomsky fan TJ? I still am. Noam Chomsky is the bee's knees. I just don't understand why everyone automatically assumes I'm some sort of hardline Israel supporter. All I've actually done is defend their right to exist and praised the acumen of Ariel Sharon as a military tactician. I didn't say he should win nice person of the century award FFS. I always thought Chomsky was as far away from Sharon as you got in the old Zion politics Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thomas Jefferson Posted January 21, 2014 Author Share Posted January 21, 2014 I always thought Chomsky was as far away from Sharon as you got in the old Zion politics You thought correctly? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rhumsaa Posted January 21, 2014 Share Posted January 21, 2014 I always thought Chomsky was as far away from Sharon as you got in the old Zion politics You thought correctly? how strange you have such diverse and contradictory opinions Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thomas Jefferson Posted January 21, 2014 Author Share Posted January 21, 2014 {removed; not responding to an obvious windup} Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rhumsaa Posted January 21, 2014 Share Posted January 21, 2014 I always thought Chomsky was as far away from Sharon as you got in the old Zion politics You thought correctly? how strange you have such diverse and contradictory opinions What are you on about? I agree with Chomsky and all I have done is say something positive about Ariel Sharon's MILITARY acumen. I haven't called for him to be made a saint or anything. Jesus Christ! don't blaspheme such foul language.............. what a cunt Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lxxx Posted January 21, 2014 Share Posted January 21, 2014 {removed; not responding to an obvious windup} Fair point though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rhumsaa Posted January 21, 2014 Share Posted January 21, 2014 good job I quoted for truth Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thomas Jefferson Posted January 21, 2014 Author Share Posted January 21, 2014 {removed; not responding to an obvious windup} Fair point though. No, it wasn't. There is absolutely no contradiction. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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