Barrie Stevens Posted February 21, 2014 Share Posted February 21, 2014 The point is that Salmond and others will make a name for themselves in or out of the EU...They will be the modern day Jacobites...He will be Bonny Prince Charlie (Plus pension, book deal, lecture tour etc).... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cambon Posted February 21, 2014 Share Posted February 21, 2014 Barrie - So what? - If he gets them independence out of the European hell! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Barrie Stevens Posted February 21, 2014 Share Posted February 21, 2014 Missing the point...They want to join the EU thus far...ie they want to join the "hell"...It is essential.. My point is that Scotland will vote no and Salmond will get the pension, the book deal and perpetual lecture tour.... That is the point so far as he and his pals are concerned in the context of (1) Independence failed and (2) Plan B..the latterday Jacobites and "Our Struggle Hardback £22.95 in the shops now! ...By the way the IOM is in the EU "Hell" about 90% but kids itself that it is "not part of Europe"... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cambon Posted February 23, 2014 Share Posted February 23, 2014 Barrie - why is the eu essential to Scotland? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pongo Posted February 23, 2014 Share Posted February 23, 2014 Barrie - why is the eu essential to Scotland? It's essential to Scottish Government's vision of an independent Scotland as a finance centre. Barroso's comments about Scotland have received very slanted coverage in the English media because the English media largely opposes Scottish independence. Barroso was speaking outside of his remit. Scotland is already part of the EU and there is no clear mechanism for excluding its elected representatives. AFAIK Scottish people will not stop being UK citizens if Scotland become independent. Because AFAIK there is no mechanism for stripping people of their nationality. And the people of Scotland will continue to be EU citizens. It is ludicrous to imagine that a country full of EU citizens would be excluded. Very likely it would be a constitutional issue for lawyers to determine - rather than being something which would go to a vote of member countries. Spain's opposition to Kosovo joining is completely different. Since Kosovo's independence is not fully recognised internationally - and since Kosovo is not already part of the EU. There is no question of Scotland's independence not being recognised internationally - in the event of a YES vote. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Barrie Stevens Posted February 23, 2014 Share Posted February 23, 2014 First if all any Mods or Administrators are reading will they please look at my account as it were as I am unable to sign in through the usual channels/my signing in name is not accepted (It says no signing in name entered)/I have tried contacting the Admin folk but to no avail and I have to use devious means to get on here by fiddling with the gismo...Please throw a poor sinner a line! Now to the EU and Scotland My understanding is that Scotland is not a member of the EU....Scotland is part of the Union...The member state is the United Kingdom of which Scotland is an integral component by way being part of the Union....We have to get away from the "Braveheart" stuff. If Scotland becomes Independent it will have to cease to be a member of the Union by way of leaving the United Kingdom. It will be on its own. There will be an interval or interegnum (It appears)... Scotland will have to apply from scratch if only to show that on its own it will be able to undertake all the obligations ie Acquis Communitaire. It probably can but it is part of the application process. Apparently, Scotland will have to apply as an independent nation for EU membership. That appears to be the procedure despite what Salmond says.. Then we are told that all new member applicants must join the Eurozone. This is what is said On the other hand to to join the Euro you must have held an independent currency for two years. Scotland has been refused Currency Union but can use Sterling but that is not the pathway to the Euro as of course the Central Bank for Sterling is outside of the Eurozone....ie using Sterling is not an independent currency from which to apply to join the Eurozone post independence. As regards nationality or citizenship or EU Citizens...Well, the Maastricht Treaty did grant a sort of notional EU Citizenship (Article 8 I think) and one could when overseas use another EU member state's consular services for instance...The Lisbon Treaty went a bit further but I am not sure how that applies to the UK as there are/were certain Red Lines imposed by London. I think you can assume that EU Citizenship is notional and in whatever form is dependent on the status of the Member State and Scotland is not an EU member so Catch 22! The people of Scotland are diverse and from many nations. Most will have UK status either by birth or adoption. If you are "British" by birth under the Crown then so far as I understand it you cannot be stripped of this (We have no USA system of taking away citizenship) You can lose your UK status if you are naturalised. This is just one issue to be resolved post any independence. Who will want to be a Scottish citizen with a Scottish passport? Would you give up your UK/British/EU status to become Scottish? Think of the consequences. There may even be a situation similar to the Manx with "that stamp" in their passport.?? In other words, Scotland may not be allowed in the EU but its largely British-UK population will retain full EU rights as persons. As to why Scotland has to be in the EU..Well they want to be! Secondly, like the IOM they may be largely shut out for Services such as financial services and in reality how could a country which was once part of a Member State not have some form of close EU relationship? The Spanish opposition as murmured is not so much linked to Kosovo as to the Basque Nationalists. Spain does not want to encourage regions to possibly follow Scotland if it goes independent nor even be granted a referendum and so so far as we know Spain will oppose Scotland and just one vote is enough to block Scotland's membership of the EU. This is what I gather from listening in to Radio 4 but mainly listening to speakers from all over the world talking on BBC World Service. One thing is for certain we have yet to hear from vested interests from around the globe and as ever these will pull the strings of power. The others just dance to their tune.. May you live in interesting times! . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chinahand Posted February 23, 2014 Author Share Posted February 23, 2014 My understanding is that the automatic entry of an independent Scotland to the EU is basically impossible. It would have to apply and go through the negotiation process before joining. Doing that will leave Scotland in some difficult positions as it requires unanimity amongst EU members The application procedure includes a commitment to join the Euro - new members which have had to go through this will be unwilling to let Scotland off the hook, plus it puts Scotland in a rather different position wrt the UK. Salmond has threatened to renege on Scotland's portion of UK debt if it isn't allowed to join a currency union with the pound. If he does that does he think the UK will give him a free pass into the EU. That puts the SNP in a very difficult position - the UK are in a very strong position to deny them currency union and the obvious and EU mandated alternative is the Euro. I feel it is basically impossible for the SNP to get both into the EU and keep the pound - gaining one will lose the other. The Eurosceptics on here may not be concerned about that, I feel for the average Scottish voter that is a huge leap into the unknown. Salmond's negotiating position is indefensible - want to bet this weakness is going be be high lighted a lot in the next few months! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Barrie Stevens Posted February 24, 2014 Share Posted February 24, 2014 And Salmond threatens to renege on Scotland's portion of the UK National Debt?...What sort of country wanting to start a new life as it were first of all shows the world that it is willing to walk away from its financial obligations?....No one will lend them any money save on "Payday Loan Terms"...Scotland propped up by Wonga.com....? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
manxy Posted February 24, 2014 Share Posted February 24, 2014 I just see the eu as a huge glorified bank working for it's German masters. It gives out loans, bonds and deals in global trade, exchanging and misplacing trillions of money in the process. Trust them, absolutely not and would love to see the inner sanctum of powers get their comeuppance for being such asses! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pierrot Lunaire Posted February 25, 2014 Share Posted February 25, 2014 I just see the eu as a huge glorified bank working for it's German masters. It gives out loans, bonds and deals in global trade, exchanging and misplacing trillions of money in the process. Trust them, absolutely not and would love to see the inner sanctum of powers get their comeuppance for being such asses! An incisive critique. Although I see the Germans as Europe's dogsbodies myself, making the stuff that nobody else can be bothered making. Yes, we might pay them quite well for it, giving them millions and millions of money, but anything to stop us having to do it. Keeps them busy and out of mischief too. Now, where do you stand on the whole ball in the tree thing? Was it purely a result of innocent horseplay, or did Peter exploit Jane's natural tolerance and good humour for nefarious reasons of personal ambition? I suspect it cost Jane hundreds of money in the long term. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Celtic1 Posted March 4, 2014 Share Posted March 4, 2014 A letter published in today's (3rd March) newspaper - are we allowed to say it was the Express?- highlights the SNP rhetoric, and ends with the comment 'it is a real turn-off for the balanced population......' This 'anti-English rant', as identified by the writer, was so prevelant in the 60s/70s IOM anti-English campaign, and the nationalistically inspired effort by 'those underground' to persuade non-Manx persons to avoid buying property, -bungalows in particular if one wanted to avoid seeing flames in areas other than in the fireplace - is so dangerously reminiscent of those times. Anyway back to the point. The letters pages of both Express and Scotsman are full of the Referendum debates, the supermarkets have members of queues giving their sides of argument to each other, -provided they attempt the common language of English, which is rarely heard.....on occasion. But it is all having a very profound effect on neighbours and people in the street. We had a significantly large 'fishing-village' celebration round here recently, and the SNP had a stall with balloons/leaflets/ presence at a photographically select road junction.....it didn't go down well with the local participants of the parade! If the Pound were the only contentious issue we might feel there was something serious to vote on......but it's like capturing mist with the hope you've solved the midge problem. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Donald Trumps Posted March 4, 2014 Share Posted March 4, 2014 Some business folk now beginning to say that an independent Scotland would be a good thing in that it might slow the growth of London Presumably they mean that Edinburgh will grow massively as a financial centre Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chinahand Posted March 4, 2014 Author Share Posted March 4, 2014 There is no way financial companies with balance sheets multiple times bigger than that of a Scottish central bank, or the money raising power of the Scottish government will want to use that central bank/that government as their lender of last resort - think Iceland, or Ireland. This is what the currency union debate is all about and why Standard Life is putting contingency plans to leave and use the Bank of England/UK gov's good will if it ever gets into trouble. Got any link to who these "business folk" are? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Donald Trumps Posted March 4, 2014 Share Posted March 4, 2014 Think it was that fella who runs British Airways I'm sure there are others Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Barrie Stevens Posted March 4, 2014 Share Posted March 4, 2014 In order to be a proper financial centre Scotland will need to join the EU so as to be part of the Single Market....This means the free movement of people, goods and services including financial services all in the economic sense... Scotland has basically been told that it will not be allowed in the EU...Spain has intimated that it will vote against Scotland's entry as it does not want to encourage Catalonia to have the same referendum deal as Scotland... It only takes one member state of the EU to say No and you are not allowed in...If Scotland is not "in" for services and in the absence of some other moderating agreement then Scotland will be shut out and limited in scope like the Isle of Man is shut out and limited compared to what might otherwise have been. It has long been an issue that the IOM is limited in terms of marketing its financial services within the EU as the Island chose to stay out of the Single Market principle and the EU has stated that there are no plans to change this unless or until the UK as the Metropolitan Power makes changes to the Crown Dependency status of IOM and Channel Islands. Scotland would appear to have the same issues. If Scotland wants to use Sterling in the absence of currency union (Which IOM has with UK) then it will not be a lot of good if it cannot put its financial services freely through the EU & Eurozone...Such would appear to be the case....If Scotland wanted to join the Eurozone then we are told that it would need to have its own independent currency for two years before being considered. When you look at the sheer financial entanglement between all parts of the UK and its global diaspora the prospect of Scotland going it alone looks too fraught with difficulty to maintain current fiscal viability...Not that it cannot happen just that it will be full of pain.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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