Chinahand Posted July 18, 2014 Author Share Posted July 18, 2014 (edited) Heck, what a mess.I have to say the total hypocrisy of Putin really sticks in my throat when he comes out with statements like this:The government over whose territory it occurred is responsible for this terrible tragedyPutin has gone out and destabilized not only Ukraine, but Georgia and Moldova - with all three countries having enclaves carved out of them by masked thugs, armed and supported by Putin's Russia.He's deliberately made it so that the government of Ukraine doesn't control its "territory", it is Putin who has armed and encouraged thugs to seize control of whole swathes of land to deliberately take control of the territory away from Ukraine.Those masked men have tortured and killed and declared their independence not only from Ukraine, but also Georgia and Moldova and they have then pledged their loyalty to Putin; and for that they have been rewarded and armed and been able to welcome Cossack and Chetchin "volunteers" arriving with advanced military hardware.Putin has spread instability into the Baltics and encouraged thuggish nationalism with his machismo.And surprise surprise when you let slip the dogs of war you cannot control them. If all you have to solve your problems is military violence, surprise surprise everything starts to look like a target.Putin only understands macho displays of posturing, preferably with a masked and armed thug to carry it out with no questions asked.He should be a pariah, but instead he is a nationalist hero for millions. Only more deaths can result while politics are being framed by such a man.Sad times to live within the shadow of the bear ... plus ça change, plus c'est la même chose Edited July 18, 2014 by Chinahand Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chinahand Posted July 18, 2014 Author Share Posted July 18, 2014 FT report on anti-aircraft systems in Eastern Ukraine. It shows there is a lot of evidence that the separatists had Buk Missile systems. And they did proudly tweet how they'd just shot down an Antonov before rapidly deleting their posts once they realized it wasn't. Walks like a duck, quacks like a duck? And if people are going to claim Obama wants to find an excuse to intervene ... well do you have any understanding of American politcs? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lxxx Posted July 18, 2014 Share Posted July 18, 2014 At least everyone has now stopped talking about the other Malaysian Airlines plane.....you know the one that went missing...with all the Korean scientists on board....hello....anyone? That's yesterdays news now...same as the women in Gaza who are having to sweep up the remains of their children off the pavements. Funny how the media works hey. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AcousticallyChallenged Posted July 18, 2014 Share Posted July 18, 2014 It looks like the Russian-backed side were to blame. Quite the coincidence that 100 of the passengers were AIDS researchers headed to Melbourne. http://www.smh.com.au/national/crash-claims-top-aids-researchers-heading-to-melbourne-20140718-zuaw3.html#ixzz37mkAFtTn Which group of people commonly associated with AIDS (whether it's truthful or not) does Putin hate? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lxxx Posted July 18, 2014 Share Posted July 18, 2014 It looks like the Russian-backed side were to blame. Quite the coincidence that 100 of the passengers were AIDS researchers headed to Melbourne. http://www.smh.com.au/national/crash-claims-top-aids-researchers-heading-to-melbourne-20140718-zuaw3.html#ixzz37mkAFtTn Which group of people commonly associated with AIDS (whether it's truthful or not) does Putin hate? WHAT???!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yin & Yang Posted July 18, 2014 Share Posted July 18, 2014 It looks like the Russian-backed side were to blame. Quite the coincidence that 100 of the passengers were AIDS researchers headed to Melbourne. http://www.smh.com.au/national/crash-claims-top-aids-researchers-heading-to-melbourne-20140718-zuaw3.html#ixzz37mkAFtTn Which group of people commonly associated with AIDS (whether it's truthful or not) does Putin hate? WHAT???!!! Wow!!! That's some wild conspiracy theory! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jacko Posted July 18, 2014 Share Posted July 18, 2014 It looks like the Russian-backed side were to blame. Quite the coincidence that 100 of the passengers were AIDS researchers headed to Melbourne. http://www.smh.com.au/national/crash-claims-top-aids-researchers-heading-to-melbourne-20140718-zuaw3.html#ixzz37mkAFtTn Which group of people commonly associated with AIDS (whether it's truthful or not) does Putin hate? Jesus H christ, there are conspiracy theories and then theres total wank. Do people get asked what their occupations when they book a plane ticket? No. End of wank. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pongo Posted July 18, 2014 Share Posted July 18, 2014 We cannot take a pencil sharpener on a plane. And yet passenger planes were still flying over an area where international security apparently, we now learn, knew full well that the partisans were using missiles to bring down aircraft. Like many other people here I have flown that route myself several times recently. I am not with the people who are suggesting a conspiracy. On the other hand it is clear and obvious that our side has fairly good intelligence about what is going on. And the phones are clearly tapped. The capabilities are clearly known. So why the heck did nobody think of telling the people who decide where airlines can be safely routed ? That surely is part of the point of having intelligence bureaux and monitoring services. (Contrast with the ridiculously over cautious advisories which are often issued about visiting places which are basically mostly safer than Douglas on a Saturday night). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tarne Posted July 18, 2014 Share Posted July 18, 2014 So why the heck did nobody think of telling the people who decide where airlines can be safely routed ? That surely is part of the point of having intelligence bureaux and monitoring services. (Contrast with the ridiculously over cautious advisories which are often issued about visiting places which are basically mostly safer than Douglas on a Saturday night). They did, but only up to 32000 ft. Airspace was closed to traffic from ground to FL320 The Ukraine however is a rather large country, and avoiding it completely can be awkward, and cost a lot more. Just check out Flightradar 24 for the amount of flights flying over the country yesterday. [you can skip back a bit via playback] Now the airspace in that area is closed from ground to unlimited and airlines have to route around it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pongo Posted July 18, 2014 Share Posted July 18, 2014 So why the heck did nobody think of telling the people who decide where airlines can be safely routed ? That surely is part of the point of having intelligence bureaux and monitoring services. (Contrast with the ridiculously over cautious advisories which are often issued about visiting places which are basically mostly safer than Douglas on a Saturday night). They did, but only up to 32000 ft. Airspace was closed to traffic from ground to FL320 The Ukraine however is a rather large country, and avoiding it completely can be awkward, and cost a lot more. Just check out Flightradar 24 for the amount of flights flying over the country yesterday. [you can skip back a bit via playback] Now the airspace in that area is closed from ground to unlimited and airlines have to route around it. With respect - the point I am making is that according to what we are being told it was clearly known that both sides had missiles capable of bringing down aircraft at the height at which the airlines were flying. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chinahand Posted July 18, 2014 Author Share Posted July 18, 2014 It's naivety, but I think it is down to the airlines trusting command and control and identify friend and foe. Yes both sides had these missiles, but they are so sophisticated that anyone using them should have access to identify friend and foe. This literally takes things back to when the soviet union shot down the Korean Airliner indifferent to its I.F.F. The airlines don't seem to have thought it possible that ... well there are, at least, two scenarios aren't there - either the missiles were launched without any command and control because they'd been handed to unintegrated units who just used their combat radar independently of any line of command; or that people would fire even if they knew it was an airliner. For me the first seems far far more likely, but the more conspiracy inclined are enjoying spinning their stories how this was done by either one or the other side for nefarious gain. Either of those two scenarios are pretty incredible ... but it is interesting that BA had routed around, while Lufthansa hadn't. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pongo Posted July 19, 2014 Share Posted July 19, 2014 So reports all over the internet today (Straits Times etc) say that the airlines had been specifically warned by the various bodies. So that answers my question. Given that airlines continue to fly over many very dangerous regions (eg Iraq and Afghansistan) let's hope that nobody we don't like manages to get control of this type of system. Because if they do it will render airport security pointless. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lxxx Posted July 19, 2014 Share Posted July 19, 2014 Who knows what really happened, however the eyes of the world are now on the chess player Putin. He seems to be check mating the west economically at the moment with the BRICS bank as well cutting trade deals in currencies other than the mighty $ so now we have a different problem for him to respond to. I wouldn't underestimate him. He won't go toe to toe with the west but he'll use his friends China and Iran for leverage me thinks. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pongo Posted July 19, 2014 Share Posted July 19, 2014 Who knows what really happened, however the eyes of the world are now on the chess player Putin. He seems to be check mating the west economically at the moment with the BRICS bank as well cutting trade deals in currencies other than the mighty $ so now we have a different problem for him to respond to. I wouldn't underestimate him. He won't go toe to toe with the west but he'll use his friends China and Iran for leverage me thinks. The establishment of the BRICS development bank in no way check-mates "the west economically" (or politically for that matter). Also - it's a completely unrelated to the plane. As is the on going issue of Hamas, Gaza etc. The best analysis I have read this week re the BRICS bank is here at The Economist. Still one of the few consistently good resources. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
guzzi Posted July 19, 2014 Share Posted July 19, 2014 I was pleased by the interview with Sara Firth on CNN yesterday evening, in which she explained her decision to resign from RT. Flicking between CNN, AJ, BBC and RT in the hour or so after the news of the crash broke, it was glaringly obvious how biased RT's coverage was. Within minutes, they were blaming Ukraine, before anything at all was known, even the location of the crash site. Firth said in her own terms that they are handed down standing instructions on how to handle any breaking news, and rule number one is 'blame Ukraine'. http://www.theguardian.com/media/2014/jul/18/mh17-russia-today-reporter-resigns-sara-firth-kremlin-malaysia Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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