Barrie Stevens Posted March 21, 2014 Share Posted March 21, 2014 The European Convention on Human Rights is just that.....a Convention. The Human Rights Act imports it into domestic law and it becomes more prominent and effective and must be taken into consideration but nevertheless it is as you might say "For the obedience of fools and the guidance of wise men".... Many people slavishly treat it like it the word of God and it is now a cousin to "Elf n Safety"... It is not some EU directive and although the rights are fundamental only one "The Right to life" is absolute but most of the "Rights and Freedoms" are qualified and the State and its agencies have a flexible margin within which to work. The First Protocol to both the Convention and Human Rights Act do give you the right to the peaceful enjoyment of your property and possessions using a broad brush. And it encompasses corporate entities as well as natural persons but equally it has the caveat that the State and its agencies can transgress this principle in order to uphold the rights and freedoms of others ie for the public good and specifically it states for the enforcement and collection of taxes... So within a democracy subscribing to the Convention and within reasonable limits both the State and its agencies can if empowered deduct tax monies from your bank account. I have long understood that this power has long been there and is or was known as an order of Garnishee obtainable from the courts.. Many moons ago a then Tax Collector told me that an order of Garnishee was not valid on the Isle of Man hence the so called "Tax Haven" status (In his eyes)... So far as I know anyone in the UK can present a valid court judgement before an IOM Court and under the reciprocal arrangements the court can if it chooses enforce the collection on Island of an off-Island debt. Or so I am given to believe is the case? On the other hand the HMRC so far as I know is not able to obtain execution through a Manx court. Is this correct? If so will it soon change? Will something akin to an order of Garnishee if they still use that instrument be soon valid on the Island? I have always found it odd that on a Crown Dependency, where authority to govern is pendent from the Crown, the Crown appointed judiciary and Attorney General are so far as I am aware allowed to get away with blocking the HMRC's tax collection activities... Recently it was reported that a derelict house in Douglas has in fact been seized or presumably put under a lien by the HMRC but that they are unable to sell it by way of the Coroner and thus collect their tax dues.??? Presumable if the court empowered the Coroner to liquidate the asset the Island's property market would quake and a lot of business be lost? Is this the next development to be "encouraged" by the UK by virtue of the VAT stranglehold? ....I question....? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Wright Posted March 21, 2014 Share Posted March 21, 2014 Barrie, yet again you conflate and confuse. The IoM has garnishee proceedings, plus this old Coroners remedy. The Isle of Man, as with most other countries, including the UK, won't allow it's courts to be used to enforce the taxes or fines and penalties due to another government, the lease case is Government of India v Taylor and it's a fundamental principle of Private International Law. It's embodied in the legislation for reciprocal recognition, registration and enforcement of foreign judgements in both countries. It's nothing to do with EU or Council of Europe, although the right to fair trial applies to taxes, it's just that it's a right that is satisfied by the Appeal Tribunals. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ballaughbiker Posted March 21, 2014 Share Posted March 21, 2014 surely it's a poor reflection on those who owe tax, know they owe tax, have had the opportunity to appeal, haven't exercised it and haven't paid Probably, but there will always be some who, for example, has more important things in their lives such as surviving. Only this morning has someone told me about HMRC's attitude regarding a minor mistake made when the poor sod concerned was fighting liver cancer. Had he not had very invasive surgery, the surgeon said he would have been terminal within weeks. Someone in this type of situation will naturally apply his efforts to surviving than penning polite letters arguing minutiae with HMRC. The victim emailed me the 10 sides of A4 containing extracts of Schedule 24 of the Finance Act 2007 they tried to frighten him into submission with. Not surprisingly having hepatocellular carcinoma beat that by a fair margin on the scale of scary. To help themselves in such circumstances would hardly be appropriate would it? There are times the taxman really chances his arm and sometimes it feels like plain harassment. I'm hardly suggesting anyone does this of course but you can just about understand someone similarly threatened to 'forget' where one or two accounts are. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Barrie Stevens Posted March 21, 2014 Share Posted March 21, 2014 John, I am not confusing or conflating I am only raising questions based on things that have happened to me... As regards the Council of Europe and human rights issues an earlier post raised and quoted from the Human Rights Convention-Act in regard to "nicking money from your account"...I tried to explain how it works...Hence my reference to the First Protocol... Of course the Human Rights aspect it is relevant as it makes if you will a sort of exception....so any collection can be based upon Human Rights in that a country's laws can "confiscate" and be Rights compliant or why else would the First Protocol make reference to the enforcement and collection of taxes?. In terms of Human Rights it must be relevant and fundamental. In other words I am sure what you say is correct about international status and conventions and treaties but underneath it all we now have the Human Rights consideration...and which says basically it is OK. A Tax Collector did way back say to me that he could not enforce an order of Garnishee on the Isle of Man...They would not allow it and I am aware of the principle of one country not enforcing the tax of another...I understand that many years ago was it Deemster Eason who had some tax collectors locked up and deported? Is this true? I was advised many years ago that the standard IOM court judgement if you will was that come the day when others allow cross border tax collection ie enforcing the taxes and fines due then so will we in the meantime no! I do not say that the Island has no Order of Garnishee or that the Coroner cannot confiscate and act by order...I question why a British sovereign non-independent territory with its Crown appointed judiciary is allowed to block the actions of HMRC as I see it...Or as I currently understand it. I mean at the end of the day the Island is one inch short of being an offshore county although a different jurisdiction. It is to many outsiders an artificially contrived situation. In other words, collection on-Island by the HMRC should be a domestic issue. When will this be? I suggest within the next few years as part of the progressive erosion of the offshore financial shenanigans. "The lease case?" I do not know what you mean it was reported and implied that there was a derelict house in Douglas and the Council could do nothing and I got the impression that HMRC had some hold over it??? I question? Personally, I feel that 'ere long the UK will enforce tax judgements in its Crown Dependencies and that they will have no choice but to comply under political pressure. But that is just me! You are a lawyer. I am merely a retired and humble cleaner. But sometimes lawyers have minds as tightly bound as the books they so avidly study...Sometimes the layman can see that which the lawyer is blind to or rather maybe the lawyer is a little bit blinkered? Does not want to come down from on high? And my post here was in this vein. Seeing things in a different way. Now as regards your responses I am mindful of something that you "me learned friend" said in Court as I stood beside you. You had taken off the wig and bands and said to a client to the effect that the law is a game played by a series of rules like tiddly winks. (You did say tiddly winks!) It is not about fact so much as what you can get away with and in this context do I evaluate your response. I am but a humble fetcher of water and hewer of wood. A horny handed son of toil (Retd) I Merely raise issues as I see them and ask questions.. Confusion and conflation is your stock in trade. Do not deny it dear boy! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Barrie Stevens Posted March 21, 2014 Share Posted March 21, 2014 I came to the Isle of Man in March 1986 in panic and on the run from the Inland Revenue. I knew that they would not pursue me there. So I am aware of this enforcement thing that it is not done although the Collector of Taxes did say that it would be referred to their local office on the Isle of Man!!!!! In 1996 I made contact with Special Office Number 2 then in Salisbury House, London. This was passed to the Special Compliance Office then in Solihull. After a series of wranglings they offered me a deal... Information (Supergrass in other words!)....in return for wiping out my situation. I still have the letter..."We do not say that tax is no longer owed...."We merely state that this matter is now considered to be closed unless further tax irregularities are brought to our attention" I had no lawyer and no accountant and did it all on my own..So I do know a little bit about it! I have sort of made an after dinner story out of this very frightening experience over the years. I mean at one time they came knocking on the door but I knew they could do nothing!... Some accountants have expressed surprise that the taxman could make such deals....Others say that I was merely the stepping stone to a much bigger catch! Needless to say that I am a very good boy these days when it comes to tax! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thommo2010 Posted March 22, 2014 Share Posted March 22, 2014 Quite a simple solution to this Make sure you pay your tax. It's down to personal responsibility, each month I get a wage slip and each month I check it to make sure it is right, if I think it is wrong I say something to my employer. . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Norville Rogers Posted March 23, 2014 Share Posted March 23, 2014 Seems that its not only HMRC that's interested in dipping into their citizens accounts http://cyprus-mail.com/2014/03/22/fury-over-taxmans-plans-to-dip-into-bank-accounts/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ballaughbiker Posted March 23, 2014 Share Posted March 23, 2014 Quite a simple solution to this Well it is simple if you are employed. http://cyprus-mail.c...-bank-accounts/ Cyprus have 'previous' for this. I bet there's no big bank balances anywhere in Cyprus as a result. Being in the € there will be lots of other possibilities. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lxxx Posted March 23, 2014 Share Posted March 23, 2014 Quite a simple solution to this Well it is simple if you are employed. http://cyprus-mail.c...-bank-accounts/ Cyprus have 'previous' for this. I bet there's no big bank balances anywhere in Cyprus as a result. Being in the there will be lots of other possibilities. Lots of big money will be wary of smaller jurisdictions now with the economic and banking uncertainty around the world seeming to be widespread in scope. Not good for the rock. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Albert Tatlock Posted March 24, 2014 Share Posted March 24, 2014 You've got to be human to have human rights. No one I ever met at the tax office was human. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moghrey Mie Posted March 26, 2014 Share Posted March 26, 2014 http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2014/mar/26/tax-clampdown-under-threat-revenue-customs-job-cuts Soon be fewer of them by the look of things. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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