Chinahand Posted April 3, 2014 Share Posted April 3, 2014 I do have to say that I think it is farcical to try to have what is basically a pub debate about Europe. But that is the level of the debate in the UK. I did watch the first debate: . But frankly I've not yet had time to watch the second one and I do wonder if I've the strength to do it: temporary iplayer link When you have a gut level debater going up against a rationalist debater the gut level debater is going to win every time by involving an emotional response in the audience.* That is exactly what is happening here with the Farage/Clegg debates. When someone calls you a bastard, messing about discussing the details of your birth certificate isn't the right way to go. Someone should really tell Nick Clegg that! If people use their gut feel to vote in a referendum then I suspect that the UK will vote for out. I was fascinated by Milliband's vetoing of a simple referendum under a labour government - though I wonder if he's being very clever and will use it as a concession to get the Liberal's into a coalition. I think there should be a referendum, but the trouble is I question how the debate is going to be raised beyond the pub level. Clegg is trying, but I suspect he'll just get drowned out. Maybe in the quiet of the polling station his message may get through a bit better, but the omens are not good based on these debates. Personally, I do think the positives outweigh the negatives in being in the EU. The trouble is it is a reasonably close run thing, and the benefits are diffuse and not easy to get emotional about, while the negatives are obvious and hit the gut. That makes it likely that people will miscalculate ... but saying that makes you look very elitist, and Farage knows how take advantage of that. Heck, in a few years time the UK could be out of Europe and without Scotland - that will mean it is genuinely diminished. Politics, hey! *Erm - I never learn do I! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rhumsaa Posted April 3, 2014 Share Posted April 3, 2014 Is that not the same with most/all politics though? Certainly look at over here, it's not the guy who comes along with an intelligent well reasoned argument for how things should change who wins but the guy who gauges public mood best and hits the headline emotive subjects? Especially on a one off issue or policy. Surely the idea of electing a government is so that they have access to all the information and take reasoned views and decisions based on a broad picture (in theory). This referendum is the equivalent of Tesco asking all the shelf stackers if they should open up a new business in Castletown, with Farage & Clegg playing the roles of assistant managers arguing over whether the staff will have to travel further or wear different coloured uniforms. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thomas Jefferson Posted April 3, 2014 Share Posted April 3, 2014 It's all good, Chinahand. The more insulting and controversial the better, as it gets people to tune in. Personally I didn't bother to tune in as neither will ever lead a government. I agree with Farage on the EU but other than that the UKIP party has some ridiculous policies -- I'd rather see UKIP disbanded and for the Tories in it to get back into the Conservative Party and co-opt it from within. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mojomonkey Posted April 3, 2014 Share Posted April 3, 2014 I tend agree on UKIP, far too many other stupid policies to make them worthwhile in the long term. Farage is an interesting character, not sure if I'd want him in charge of anything important though. I read something interesting recently about him (I can't remember where though) that put forward the argument that his wife pulled all the strings really. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Albert Tatlock Posted April 3, 2014 Share Posted April 3, 2014 The average Brit just reads the gutter press Daily Wail version of the truth. When he votes 'No' and then loses his job...only then will he realise he's been had, and that ill-thought through political agendas do not pay the bills. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Donald Trumps Posted April 3, 2014 Share Posted April 3, 2014 I can't understand how people think Farage won the debates Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rhumsaa Posted April 3, 2014 Share Posted April 3, 2014 It's all good, Chinahand. The more insulting and controversial the better, as it gets people to tune in. Personally I didn't bother to tune in amazing Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chinahand Posted April 3, 2014 Author Share Posted April 3, 2014 It's all good, Chinahand. The more insulting and controversial the better, as it gets people to tune in. Personally I didn't bother to tune in amazing Erm surely you mean "typical" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Domino Posted April 3, 2014 Share Posted April 3, 2014 So those of you have posted up to now consider yourselves elitist 'rationalist debaters' Pfft Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shake me up Judy Posted April 3, 2014 Share Posted April 3, 2014 Only watched last night's debate on BBC2, but Farage blitzed Clegg. Clegg had absolutely nothing and was resorting to old canards and cliches in a pitiful performance. I think he's diminished by these debates, and if I were the Liberal Democrats I'd be looking for a new leader this morning. Farage gave an excellent performance and will definitely boost UKIP's support on the evidence of last night. I'm not a natural UKIP supporter but there's no way I'd vote for the Conservatives, or Labour with Milliband in charge. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moghrey Mie Posted April 3, 2014 Share Posted April 3, 2014 UKIP and Liberal Democrats are minority parties. Has UKIP even got a member in parliament. I know they've got a couple of MEPs. The future of the UK in relation to Europe will be decided by the Conservatives and Labour. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Donald Trumps Posted April 3, 2014 Share Posted April 3, 2014 The immediate future of the UK in relation to Europe will be decided by the Millennials UKIP is a party representing old people who feel alienated in English society today They'll never form a government but probably will force the Tories to make a bid for the centre ground in next years election Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shake me up Judy Posted April 3, 2014 Share Posted April 3, 2014 The Lib Dems will be routed at the 2015 General Election, and both the Conservatives and Labour will lose seats to UKIP. Unless they drop the ball on the way to the polling booth, UKIP will play a significant part in the decision whether to remain in Europe. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chinahand Posted April 3, 2014 Author Share Posted April 3, 2014 But Millennials are not engaged with politics and tend not to vote - therefore the elderly, who are a larger voting block and who actually use that vote are far more able to get influence politicians. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pongo Posted April 3, 2014 Share Posted April 3, 2014 Certainly look at over here, it's not the guy who comes along with an intelligent well reasoned argument for how things should change who wins but the guy who gauges public mood best and hits the headline emotive subjects? Especially on a one off issue or policy.Spot on. At face value Farage is more likeable and comes across better. He gives what seem like straight simple answers. In realty I think that his answers are often simplistic - and that the questions require analysis leading to answers which would be much more complex and nuanced. Also Farage is a natural libertarian - in that respect he has nothing in common with most UKIP supporters. Clegg is subtly shifting on the EU. More open now to advancing the idea of a soft renegotiation which is Cameron's position. If the Liberals go for that in general then it potentially leaves open the route to a second coalition should the Tories not get an outright majority at the election. I cannot see Britain leaving the EU. Even if something goes terribly wrong and they somehow vote to leave. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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