quilp Posted June 11, 2014 Share Posted June 11, 2014 This scenario will unfold in Afghanistan after the pull-out. It too, like Iraq, will descend into mayhem and murder. The American trained and supplied Iraqi army laid down their weapons and fled. No stomach for the fight, apparently. Now the residents of Mosul fear government air-raids. Is an islamic 'Caliphate' in the Middle East possible? Some very dark days ahead.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
puck my siles Posted June 11, 2014 Share Posted June 11, 2014 Handy way for Saudi to keep the oil price up too. Not suggesting they are funding any of this though Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thomas Jefferson Posted June 11, 2014 Share Posted June 11, 2014 Don't knock the British museum. If they hadn't looted a load of stuff from the ancient world no doubt the local original 'owners' would have destroyed it all long ago. What's their excuse in Greece, Egypt, India, China,...? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
woolley Posted June 11, 2014 Author Share Posted June 11, 2014 This scenario will unfold in Afghanistan after the pull-out. It too, like Iraq, will descend into mayhem and murder. The American trained and supplied Iraqi army laid down their weapons and fled. No stomach for the fight, apparently. Now the residents of Mosul fear government air-raids. Is an islamic 'Caliphate' in the Middle East possible? Some very dark days ahead.... Absolutely possible in the Middle East. And in Europe too, although 90% of the population is blind to that. They are still at the "when you are in our country you abide by our laws" stage, ignorant of the demographics of the next 100 years. It's time for the West and the Russians, maybe even the Chinese to join together and put down this menace once and for all. There isn't the will though, and the fundamentalists know that. Did you hear Obama? Pathetic. We are soft and weak. They are hard and hungry. No Geneva Convention in their rules of engagement. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
woolley Posted June 11, 2014 Author Share Posted June 11, 2014 Don't knock the British museum. If they hadn't looted a load of stuff from the ancient world no doubt the local original 'owners' would have destroyed it all long ago. What's their excuse in Greece, Egypt, India, China,...? There is only one excuse. Might is right. We were mighty. When you are on top make the most of it because once you slip - as we have done - the world is lining up to give you a sound kicking. Tell your kids to brace themselves. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ScotsAlan Posted June 12, 2014 Share Posted June 12, 2014 We are all extreamists in our own ways Some people think it's right and just to bomb innocent people to give them freedom from a dictatorship. Some people think it's right and just to bomb innocent people to save people from the excesses of the west, and to bring them back to obeying God. As others have said, the path to western democracy has not exactly been blood free. Now, I am a firm believer in democracy. But I certainly do not see it as the great giver of freedom, nor is it the geat equaliser of people that it is supposed to be. Dictatorship might be seen as an unjust system of Government. Buy hey, these dictators are desperate to hang onto power. they set up networks to keep control, they reward people who are loyal etc. To the normal person in the street it might mean they have to hang a portrait in every room and sing patriotic songs every now and then. But if they toe the line they are left alone to get on with things. But then Bush and Blair had to step in, offering the opressed people the promise of freedom. It was their mission. Dare I say it, it was a bit of an extream mission. But it failed. Now look at the mess they have got them into. The picture is in bad taste, given the death and destruction that is going on. So I apologise upfront. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lxxx Posted June 12, 2014 Share Posted June 12, 2014 We are all extreamists in our own ways Some people think it's right and just to bomb innocent people to give them freedom from a dictatorship. Some people think it's right and just to bomb innocent people to save people from the excesses of the west, and to bring them back to obeying God. As others have said, the path to western democracy has not exactly been blood free. Now, I am a firm believer in democracy. But I certainly do not see it as the great giver of freedom, nor is it the geat equaliser of people that it is supposed to be. Dictatorship might be seen as an unjust system of Government. Buy hey, these dictators are desperate to hang onto power. they set up networks to keep control, they reward people who are loyal etc. To the normal person in the street it might mean they have to hang a portrait in every room and sing patriotic songs every now and then. But if they toe the line they are left alone to get on with things. But then Bush and Blair had to step in, offering the opressed people the promise of freedom. It was their mission. Dare I say it, it was a bit of an extream mission. But it failed. Now look at the mess they have got them into. big m.PNG The picture is in bad taste, given the death and destruction that is going on. So I apologise upfront. Bit extream. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Norville Rogers Posted June 12, 2014 Share Posted June 12, 2014 Winning hearts and minds no less. Mission accomplished my arse. Is this the good al ***da the USSA backs against Assad or the bad one? Or are they one and the same. I imagine the military industrial complex, connected rebuilders and financiers are slavering at the lips hoping the good ol USSA "saves" the Iraqis yet again W*D or not and the oil fields are again entirely irrelevant /sarc This deliberate policy of ramping up of tension around the world by vested interests will end badly for us normal folks but our overlords will profit nicely as usual. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
guzzi Posted June 12, 2014 Share Posted June 12, 2014 The Iraq invasion is playing out tragically badly, showing the folly of 'nation building' by armed intervention. I believe that what has unfolded in the middle east for almost a century are a succession of protracted convulsions in the vacuum left by the demise Ottoman Empire. The League of Nations Mandate kept the tensions bottled for a while, and the whole process has been complicated and perverted by the intervention of the US and its allies, and the creation of the client state of Israel. There will ultimately be some sort of Middle Eastern 'caliphate', and it won't be modelled on European or US democratic principles. We are seeing Muslims from the UK, Europe and the US being drawn into the various conflicts. I personally believe that dissemination of ideas from educated, middle class Muslims who are part of the diaspora, with an allegiance to post-enlightenment rationalism, and to material benefits of capitalism, will be important in shaping this 'caliphate'. Wahhabism just won't be acceptable to such people. The best policy for 'the West' is to stay out of the way and allow events to unfold, encouraging dialogue between the directly involved factions, and between them and the western Muslim diaspora. Israel is a lethal poison in the heart of all this, and whilst the 'the West' can't undo the injection of that poison, it can and should try to ameliorate its effects by insisting on the withdrawal of Israeli settlements in the West Bank and facilitating the creation of a Palestinian state with territorial integrity. Chances of a successful outcome? Anyone's guess. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Albert Tatlock Posted June 12, 2014 Share Posted June 12, 2014 Who'd have predicted this, besides the majority of people? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Non-Believer Posted June 12, 2014 Share Posted June 12, 2014 Who'd have predicted this, besides the majority of people? And the same for Afghanistan when pullout is completed....? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
quilp Posted June 12, 2014 Share Posted June 12, 2014 ''....Israel...poison....'' etc etc. This conflict isn't about Israel. It's concerns a long-standing schism (1300 years?) within islam, between shia and sunni sects. Internecine struggle's such as these can never be resolved by intellectual, middle-class, moderate muslim's bathed in enlightenment. The hatred shared between these two factions does not recognise class, or intellect. It is scripturally driven violence at its most savage. Some units are ''be-heading their way to Baghdad''. The medievil, bloody symbolism of the koran and hadiths. Israel is possibly entering its most dangerous situation since '67. If a caliphate does evolve, the Jews will be next (again), swiftly followed by christians and other minority sects in that area. How it may affect Europe and its surrounding areas depends much on this latest battle in an ancient war. Let's not forget Turkey, the Kurds. Pressure on the West from the House of Saud. The creeping influence of Iran http://www.newenglishreview.org/blog_direct_link.cfm/blog_id/54447 The affects can only be far-reaching and very long-term, from here. It does not bode well.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
guzzi Posted June 12, 2014 Share Posted June 12, 2014 Quilp, of course I am aware of the sectarian nature of the current conflict in Iraq, Syria et al. I completely agree that the situation is ominous. I was trying to describe what I think would be a stable and humane outcome, namely a middle east united under what could be described as a 'caliphate', but well disposed towards the West and respectful of minorities. Such an outcome stretches the imagination, I admit, but an equitable solution for the Palestinians is essential if there is to be any chance at all. Israel is currently preventing such a solution, hence my opinion that it is a poison. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
woolley Posted June 12, 2014 Author Share Posted June 12, 2014 Our major problem is the fifth column western Muslim diaspora as you call it. I cannot see this large group being a force for moderation. Whilst the majority would not engage in violent jihad in their host countries, I could see many of them being acquiescent in the face of others doing so because there is a widespread loathing of what they see as the moral degeneracy of western society. As their numbers increase as a proportion of the population there will inevitably be strife which will further sap the strength of Europe particularly, and if a widespread caliphate emerges in the Middle East which does not respect League of Nations or post war imposed borders (which of course it won't), it will become another centre of gravity sowing the seeds of secular/post Christian Europe's demise. Apart from that things aren't so bad. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
slinkydevil Posted June 12, 2014 Share Posted June 12, 2014 Our major problem is the fifth column western Muslim diaspora as you call it. I cannot see this large group being a force for moderation. Whilst the majority would not engage in violent jihad in their host countries, I could see many of them being acquiescent in the face of others doing so because there is a widespread loathing of what they see as the moral degeneracy of western society. As their numbers increase as a proportion of the population there will inevitably be strife which will further sap the strength of Europe particularly, and if a widespread caliphate emerges in the Middle East which does not respect League of Nations or post war imposed borders (which of course it won't), it will become another centre of gravity sowing the seeds of secular/post Christian Europe's demise. Apart from that things aren't so bad. So how long before calls to prayer from Laxey Wheel? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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