woolley Posted June 12, 2014 Author Share Posted June 12, 2014 Our major problem is the fifth column western Muslim diaspora as you call it. I cannot see this large group being a force for moderation. Whilst the majority would not engage in violent jihad in their host countries, I could see many of them being acquiescent in the face of others doing so because there is a widespread loathing of what they see as the moral degeneracy of western society. As their numbers increase as a proportion of the population there will inevitably be strife which will further sap the strength of Europe particularly, and if a widespread caliphate emerges in the Middle East which does not respect League of Nations or post war imposed borders (which of course it won't), it will become another centre of gravity sowing the seeds of secular/post Christian Europe's demise. Apart from that things aren't so bad. So how long before calls to prayer from Laxey Wheel? A few decades ago who would have thought it would ever be heard in English cities? Things develop quickly. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0c7aOMHUVg0 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bananaman Posted June 13, 2014 Share Posted June 13, 2014 Does this mean we get some proper Rubber Dhingy rapids bro? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
guzzi Posted June 13, 2014 Share Posted June 13, 2014 Woolley, I think the fifth columnists are a tiny minority of British Muslims. The great majority are engaged in our society and enjoy its rewards. For a young, Muslim woman, in a professional occupation living and working in the UK, the life and the lack of rights of women in (say) Iraq, Iran or Saudi Arabia will stand in stark contrast to her own. British society should make sure that as many Muslims as possible are in that position. I am very wary of apocalyptic predictions, because all to often, they are raised as frightening spectres by those who are, basically, racists. "As I look ahead, I am filled with foreboding; like the Roman, I seem to see 'the River Tiber foaming with much blood.'" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
quilp Posted June 13, 2014 Share Posted June 13, 2014 Dhimmi Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
woolley Posted June 13, 2014 Author Share Posted June 13, 2014 Woolley, I think the fifth columnists are a tiny minority of British Muslims. The great majority are engaged in our society and enjoy its rewards. For a young, Muslim woman, in a professional occupation living and working in the UK, the life and the lack of rights of women in (say) Iraq, Iran or Saudi Arabia will stand in stark contrast to her own. British society should make sure that as many Muslims as possible are in that position. I am very wary of apocalyptic predictions, because all to often, they are raised as frightening spectres by those who are, basically, racists. "As I look ahead, I am filled with foreboding; like the Roman, I seem to see 'the River Tiber foaming with much blood.'" Guzzi, you make a lot of pertinent points in that short post. I wouldn't dispute that a majority of Muslims are engaged in our society at least to some extent, but at the same time don't underestimate the tendency of people to lean the way the wind is blowing. I do believe that many of them would adapt and live happily in a caliphate under sharia law if that was the way it was going to be. Most people just want a quiet life. To them, there would be some disadvantages in the loss of western type personal freedoms, particularly for women, but don't underestimate the advantages they would see in the demise of the degeneracy, decadence and moral bankruptcy of our current society. Many of them loathe it and don't engage with it at all. It is easy to fall into the trap of looking at things with an innate western mindset and believing that everyone in the population shares our basic values. That is a big leap of faith as many don't see modern secular materialism as a panacea. As for "racism", as I said earlier in the thread, Islam isn't even a race. Racism means the hatred of a person because of his race. It has been twisted by the liberal establishment over the years to close down debate on any matter that doesn't agree with their agenda of immigration and the formation of a multi-racial society. I think the road we have gone down in the last 60 years will be the ruination of the country and the end of our way of life as we have known it. That isn't racist. I have friends and associates of Asian and African origin and they are truly lovely people. But to chart a course that will make us a minority in our own country and continent over 200 years is to me a total dereliction of duty to future generations. Large populations of different religions in one place throughout history leads to bloodshed.Take for example what happened in the former Yugoslavia when Tito died and the country unravelled. People who lived together as neighbours for generations were killing each other along religious lines. It is at least a huge hostage to fortune to believe that we are different and that we can buck that trend and come out the other side as a strong cohesive unit. In western Europe, the absence of war for almost 70 years has made us very complacent. You can see that in the coverage of D-Day at the moment. Countless times I have heard words to the effect that war is now "unthinkable" in western Europe. As war slips out of living memory, the dangers loom large for us all and I fear we are in for a massive shock. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
guzzi Posted June 13, 2014 Share Posted June 13, 2014 Woolley (and anyone else who knows) is the conversion of Western Europe to sharia law actually and credibly on any group's agenda? I have read of groups calling for the reversal of the Reconquista and the re-establishment of Al-Andalus, but I have never read anything beyond the nuttiest ravings suggesting that Germany, the UK, Denmark or Sweden or any other multi-cultural European country should abandon its cultural heritage and become an Islamic state. I hope that isn't complacency. You do nothing to sell modern secular materialism by listing some of its vices (degeneracy, decadence and moral bankruptcy) but not its virtues, such as the rule of law, equality in law, tolerance, wealth, freedom to travel, freedom of religion etc. etc.) and I firmly believe that for most, the balance is clearly on the positive side. To me, the end of our way of life as we have known it has come and gone, possibly several times, since I was born in the mid 1950s. Personally, whilst I am sometimes quite startled by the differences, I also think that on the whole, things are much better now. A tired argument, but still a valid one is that Britain has never had a stable, homogenous ethnicity. Waves of change have swept in many new Britons over the centuries and I won't bore you by trying to list them. Yes, I agree that Islam isn't a race. However, nearly all muslims are Asians, Arabs or Africans and so I stick by the word racist in the context I used it. What is happening in Iraq will obviously have consequences for that country, probably for the region but I don't like to predict wider consequences as catastrophic as you fear. I also believe that if the right conditions are met, a positive outcome could arise. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pongo Posted June 13, 2014 Share Posted June 13, 2014 I have friends and associates of Asian and African origin and they are truly lovely people. But http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Friend_argument The friend argument is .... (a) form of the "Not prejudiced, but..." statement. Any sentence that starts with the words "I'm not prejudiced, but...," or similar formations ... is likely to contradict itself very rapidly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
woolley Posted June 13, 2014 Author Share Posted June 13, 2014 I have friends and associates of Asian and African origin and they are truly lovely people. But http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Friend_argument Yes, of course. Think a little deeper. This is the liberal establishment orthodoxy that has so many people in its thrall in action. I do have friends and business associates of other races and I prefer their company to many boorish British if that suits you better. Doesn't mean to say that I have to approve of a United Nations of a population that will lead to strife and be negative for everyone of every race that gets caught up in it. As I said, situations can develop rapidly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
woolley Posted June 13, 2014 Author Share Posted June 13, 2014 I hope that isn't complacency. You do nothing to sell modern secular materialism by listing some of its vices (degeneracy, decadence and moral bankruptcy) but not its virtues, such as the rule of law, equality in law, tolerance, wealth, freedom to travel, freedom of religion etc. etc.) and I firmly believe that for most, the balance is clearly on the positive side. Another thoughtful post that I don't have time to comment on at length bearing in mind that I've already abandoned my newly adopted "don't engage in long postings during the working day" regime. I appreciate that your view is sincerely held as it is by many, but I do fear that it is complacent and that we neglect fundamental differences in beliefs at our peril. Because of our shared upbringing and conditioning we tend to think that people in other parts of the world would welcome our idea of society with open arms given the chance. It's understandable because we think our way is the best way. When we try to impose it of course it doesn't work out that way. People do not see us as the shining example to aspire to that we think we are. The road to hell is paved with good intentions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pongo Posted June 13, 2014 Share Posted June 13, 2014 This is the liberal establishment orthodoxy etcIsn't liberal democracy what you are worrying about losing ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Donald Trumps Posted June 13, 2014 Share Posted June 13, 2014 Is TJ on holiday? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Albert Tatlock Posted June 13, 2014 Share Posted June 13, 2014 Is TJ on holiday? He's probably too busy arguing with his sock puppets at home now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
woolley Posted June 13, 2014 Author Share Posted June 13, 2014 This is the liberal establishment orthodoxy etcIsn't liberal democracy what you are worrying about losing ? No. Not THIS liberal! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Truth Seeker Posted June 16, 2014 Share Posted June 16, 2014 I'm not a fan of Boris Johnson, but this quote I can agree with, "I have come to the conclusion that Tony Blair has finally gone mad." Blairs Iraq invasion was a tragic error, and he's mad to deny it. http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/middleeast/iraq/10901651/Blairs-Iraq-invasion-was-a-tragic-error-and-hes-mad-to-deny-it.html Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
woolley Posted June 16, 2014 Author Share Posted June 16, 2014 Amazing how he can stand there and deny it with a smile. Hubris filled adventure paid for with other peoples' blood and a whole load of grief stored up for the future. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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