spook Posted July 28, 2014 Author Share Posted July 28, 2014 There's something very ugly in this rage against Israel What garbage. The relentless slaughter of civilians on a daily basis, akin to shooting (with a high powered rifle) fish in a (small) barrel is inhumane, regardless of anyone's views on the bigger picture of the conflict. from what I've been seeing the 'civilian' deaths are not what they are being presented as by a long chalk To begin with there is no relentless slaughter and moreover the civilian population had every opportunity to get out of town. What is taking place is in now way comparable to shooting fish in anything. The more I look into what is going on the more I find myself siding with Israel. The declared aims of hamas are disgusting. Their actions have been and are disgusting, and I don't see them changing in the future. The terrible harm that has been done and continues to be done to kids in Gaza by hamas, many of whom are insurgents rather than grass roots Palestinians is staggering. Just Google 'farfour' as a starter and go from there. It's shocking beyond belief that any nation / state / society could let alone would corrupt young children in such a manner And yet they have. I'll be honest, it's sickened me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
woolley Posted July 28, 2014 Share Posted July 28, 2014 (edited) Dissenters were crackpots to their enlightened minds. Anyone who believes that the EU is about breaking the will of the people is indeed a crackpot. The EU is run by and for an elite with an agenda that is fast sinking and becoming irrelevant. It bypasses the will of the people rather than heeding it or confronting it. It is galling to see young people who have led soft comfortable lives be so ignorant of reality that they stand with placards proclaiming such nonsense as "We are all Hamas now." Heaven help them if we are. Edited July 28, 2014 by woolley 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pongo Posted July 28, 2014 Share Posted July 28, 2014 The EU is run by and for an elite with an agenda that is fast sinking and becoming irrelevant. It bypasses the will of the people rather than heeding it or confronting it. The idea of the will of the people in this context comes from Rousseau as you likely know. I might as well just quote Wikipedia rather than trying to word the rest of this post myself. This point is that the will of the people is not a good basis for deciding what happens. Early critics of Rousseau included Benjamin Constant and Georg Wilhelm Friedrich Hegel. Hegel argued that, because it lacked any grounding in an objective ideal of reason, Rousseau's account of the general will ineluctably lead to the Terror. Constant also blamed Rousseau for the excesses of the French Revolution, and he rejected the total subordination of the citizen-subjects to the determinations of the general will. In 1952 Jacob Talmon characterized Rousseau's "general will" as leading to a Totalitarian Democracy because, Talmon argued, the state subjected its citizens to the supposedly infallible will of the tyranny of the majority. Another writer during the Cold War period, liberal theorist Karl Popper, also interpreted Rousseau in this way. Other prominent critics include Isaiah Berlin. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spook Posted July 28, 2014 Author Share Posted July 28, 2014 And then ----- there's Bilderberg Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lxxx Posted July 28, 2014 Share Posted July 28, 2014 Dissenters were crackpots to their enlightened minds. Anyone who believes that the EU is about breaking the will of the people is indeed a crackpot.The EU is run by and for an elite with an agenda that is fast sinking and becoming irrelevant. It bypasses the will of the people rather than heeding it or confronting it. It is galling to see young people who have led soft comfortable lives be so ignorant of reality that they stand with placards proclaiming such nonsense as "We are all Hamas now." Heaven help them if we are. Probably wet little Guardian-reading lefties who grew up in the Home Countries who now think it's cool to stand for 'something.' I think it's foolish to side with either Hamas or the IDF as by definition they are both 'terrorist' organisations but the relentless slaughter day after day is one step removed from reasonable force retaliation . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spook Posted July 28, 2014 Author Share Posted July 28, 2014 The IDF are absolutly NOT a terrorist organisation. It is disgusting to even think so quite apart from saying so. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alibaba Posted July 28, 2014 Share Posted July 28, 2014 According to Jon Snow from C4 news the average age of the people of Gaza is 17. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mojomonkey Posted July 28, 2014 Share Posted July 28, 2014 (edited) Spook - why do you keep writing civilians as 'civilians'? Do you not accept that everyday men, women and children are dying, or are all Palestinians fair game in your opinion? Edited July 28, 2014 by mojomonkey Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thomas Jefferson Posted July 28, 2014 Share Posted July 28, 2014 In 1952 Jacob Talmon characterized Rousseau's "general will" as leading to a Totalitarian Democracy because, Talmon argued, the state subjected its citizens to the supposedly infallible will of the tyranny of the majority. Another writer during the Cold War period, liberal theorist Karl Popper, also interpreted Rousseau in this way. Other prominent critics include Isaiah Berlin. Isaiah Berlin's Two Concepts of Liberty should be required reading for all high school students. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thomas Jefferson Posted July 28, 2014 Share Posted July 28, 2014 Spook - why do you keep writing civilians as 'civilians'? Do you not accept that everyday men, women and children are dying, or are all Palestinians fair game in your opinion? The Palestinians are brainwashed to act as human shields and even the children are taught to be martyrs and get involved in the fights. It's not as simple as saying they're just innocent civilians minding their own business or getting caught up in it. They are being told by Hamas to deliberately get involved. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thomas Jefferson Posted July 28, 2014 Share Posted July 28, 2014 The EU is run by and for an elite with an agenda that is fast sinking and becoming irrelevant. It bypasses the will of the people rather than heeding it or confronting it. The idea of the will of the people in this context comes from Rousseau as you likely know. I think "the CONSENT of the people" would be a better phrase. The people are sovereign. Without democratic representation, there is no consent and no legitimate right to legislate. Only agents (representatives) of the sovereign power (the people) can legislate. An absolutist monarchy or an unelected bureaucracy does not have a divine right to arbitrarily legislate without the consent of the governed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mojomonkey Posted July 28, 2014 Share Posted July 28, 2014 Spook - why do you keep writing civilians as 'civilians'? Do you not accept that everyday men, women and children are dying, or are all Palestinians fair game in your opinion? The Palestinians are brainwashed to act as human shields and even the children are taught to be martyrs and get involved in the fights. It's not as simple as saying they're just innocent civilians minding their own business or getting caught up in it. They are being told by Hamas to deliberately get involved. Thanks, but I asked Spook not you. I'm interested in his reason, although I suspect they'll just repeat what you've said now. Personally, I struggle to see how a child can viewed as anything other than an innocent civilian. I repeat what I've said previously, both sets of governments involved in this are evil fucks. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thomas Jefferson Posted July 28, 2014 Share Posted July 28, 2014 Personally, I struggle to see how a child can viewed as anything other than an innocent civilian. I repeat what I've said previously, both sets of governments involved in this are evil fucks. Nobody has said a child is anything other than an innocent civilian. However, you have to remember that Hamas and the childrens' brainwashed parents are using them as human shields. I don't think you appreciate the power of the cult of martyrdom in their culture. They even have Palestinian kids' TV shows, with a mickey mouse character brainwashing the kids to think it's cool and trendy to want to grow up to be a martyr and kill Jews. The Israelis are not just attacking Hamas while they're at home eating hummus; they are attacking Hamas while Hamas are continuously firing rockets at Israeli civilian areas. Now, do you seriously think the Israelis should sit back and let Hamas keep firing these rockets into Israel, because they've got human shields around them? It's a nice idea but how else do you propose to stop Hamas firing the rockets? Ask them nicely? 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spook Posted July 29, 2014 Author Share Posted July 29, 2014 Attn. mojomonkey There are no legal combatants in Gaza. Instead there are people many of whom are involved directly or indirectly in terrorist attacks on Israel and the Israeli people. In addition to them there are many more who support the attacks on Israel. There are some who genuinely are both horrified and deeply concerned at what is and has been taking place but those people have, if permitted by hamas or unknown to hamas, fled South of Gaza city and so out of the theatre of war. The Gaza strip is not under attack, not even all of Gaza city, and another of the lies perpetrated by hamas and their supporters (plus the useful idiots who believe it) is that there is nowhere to go in order to be out of the fire zone. There is. Because of this there are no legal combatants, it means that there are precious few civilians, the rest are terrorists or supporters of terrorism. And insurgents. Lots of insurgents. This isn't just playing with words. It's a deliberate ploy by hamas in order to portray events in Gaza city in the best possible way for them and the worst possible way for Israel. Even the presentation of Gaza as being some form of prison compound filled with poor and starving desperate and defenceless people. None of which is true. I started out with a bias with sympathy for the people under attack in Gaza and a deep disquiet as regards what Israel was doing, but rather simply read the daily news and see then pictures coming out I decided to look deeper into what was taking place and a bit of the history. It horrified me, and continues to do so as I continue to examine the history. What is taking place today must not be seen in isolation from what has taken place in the past, and what is very interesting is the role that Britain has had in this mess. It is not a role that Britain should take any pride in, in fact just the opposite. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lxxx Posted July 29, 2014 Share Posted July 29, 2014 (edited) Attn. mojomonkey There are no legal combatants in Gaza. Instead there are people many of whom are involved directly or indirectly in terrorist attacks on Israel and the Israeli people. In addition to them there are many more who support the attacks on Israel. There are some who genuinely are both horrified and deeply concerned at what is and has been taking place but those people have, if permitted by hamas or unknown to hamas, fled South of Gaza city and so out of the theatre of war. The Gaza strip is not under attack, not even all of Gaza city, and another of the lies perpetrated by hamas and their supporters (plus the useful idiots who believe it) is that there is nowhere to go in order to be out of the fire zone. There is. Because of this there are no legal combatants, it means that there are precious few civilians, the rest are terrorists or supporters of terrorism. And insurgents. Lots of insurgents. This isn't just playing with words. It's a deliberate ploy by hamas in order to portray events in Gaza city in the best possible way for them and the worst possible way for Israel. Even the presentation of Gaza as being some form of prison compound filled with poor and starving desperate and defenceless people. None of which is true. I started out with a bias with sympathy for the people under attack in Gaza and a deep disquiet as regards what Israel was doing, but rather simply read the daily news and see then pictures coming out I decided to look deeper into what was taking place and a bit of the history. It horrified me, and continues to do so as I continue to examine the history. What is taking place today must not be seen in isolation from what has taken place in the past, and what is very interesting is the role that Britain has had in this mess. It is not a role that Britain should take any pride in, in fact just the opposite. All very true. I have seen lots of photos of dead 3 and 4 yr old terrorists and some insurgents even younger than that, as they all lay in wait in their gangs to ambush the IDF from their nursery. Edited July 29, 2014 by Lxxx 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.