Shake me up Judy Posted May 25 Share Posted May 25 20 minutes ago, HeliX said: Or perhaps students are learned enough to spot obvious injustice, and empathetic though to realise that there but for the grace of God... More like youthful 'delusions of political enlightenment'. DOPE for short. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
P.K. Posted May 25 Share Posted May 25 24 minutes ago, HeliX said: It matters because the lies are always used to justify horrific levels of civilian casualties to the western world. And then it's revealed it wasn't true, and it's too late, you can't resurrect those civilians. I've repeatedly explained how it is that some people have to make difficult decisions and then others have to get hard, ugly things done. Not because they want to. But because they have to. In this case Israel was savagely attacked by an enemy that wants the annihilation of their state and all it's people. Which means they HAVE to respond. Because if you don't respond then the only thing that changes is it will get worse. Absolutely guaranteed. Something you can't or won't grasp. Hamas deliberately hide in built up areas hence the high civilian cost. If Hamas surrendered then the war would immediately stop. But they won't because they know that the more civilians that get killed the more people like you will rail at Israel basically doing the terrorists work for them... 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HeliX Posted May 25 Share Posted May 25 Just now, P.K. said: I've repeatedly explained how it is that some people have to make difficult decisions and then others have to get hard, ugly things done. Not because they want to. But because they have to. In this case Israel was savagely attacked by an enemy that wants the annihilation of their state and all it's people. Which means they HAVE to respond. Because if you don't respond then the only thing that changes is it will get worse. Absolutely guaranteed. Something you can't or won't grasp. Hamas deliberately hide in built up areas hence the high civilian cost. If Hamas surrendered then the war would immediately stop. But they won't because they know that the more civilians that get killed the more people like you will rail at Israel basically doing the terrorists work for them... Cool, what's that got to do with lying to sway public opinion? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HeliX Posted May 25 Share Posted May 25 1 minute ago, P.K. said: In this case Israel was savagely attacked by an enemy that wants the annihilation of their state and all it's people. Which means they HAVE to respond. Because if you don't respond then the only thing that changes is it will get worse. Absolutely guaranteed. Something you can't or won't grasp. Does this mean Hamas had to respond when 2022 became the deadliest year on record for Palestinian children in the West Bank? What about when 2023 did? What about when IDF forces repeatedly stormed the Al Aqsa Mosque and beat the shit out of civilians? Answers on a post card. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
P.K. Posted May 25 Share Posted May 25 Just now, HeliX said: Cool, what's that got to do with lying to sway public opinion? Are you thick or what? Propaganda is as old as warfare itself. Face it. It certainly works on you... 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HeliX Posted May 25 Share Posted May 25 Just now, P.K. said: Are you thick or what? Propaganda is as old as warfare itself. Face it. It certainly works on you... That makes it fine for Israel to make up lies, such as "40 beheaded babies", to justify the wholesale slaughter of civilians does it? As per usual, in your mind it's fine for Israel to do absolutely anything. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
P.K. Posted May 25 Share Posted May 25 1 minute ago, HeliX said: That makes it fine for Israel to make up lies, such as "40 beheaded babies", to justify the wholesale slaughter of civilians does it? As per usual, in your mind it's fine for Israel to do absolutely anything. I believe the number was lower than that. But dead is dead hence the inevitable response. I've already explained that the civilian casualties are down to the deliberate Hamas tactic of getting them killed. It's very unfortunate but as I explained earlier Israel HAD to respond. Why is it you can't grasp these simple facts of the matter...? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HeliX Posted May 25 Share Posted May 25 14 minutes ago, P.K. said: I believe the number was lower than that. But dead is dead hence the inevitable response. I've already explained that the civilian casualties are down to the deliberate Hamas tactic of getting them killed. It's very unfortunate but as I explained earlier Israel HAD to respond. Why is it you can't grasp these simple facts of the matter...? Lower as in there weren't any. As has been pointed out to you, at length, multiple times, there are only civilian areas in Gaza. Obviously any military force is therefore going to be in a civilian area. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
quilp Posted May 25 Share Posted May 25 1 hour ago, P.K. said: Why is it you can't grasp these simple facts of the matter...? It's not a question of can't but won't. It doesn't suit him, as with countless other ideologues like him. Another colour that can be added to the technicolour dreamcoat he feels looks good on him. The continuous confirmation bias plucked from other media that he slavishly adheres to and posts up as proof of his righteousness means whatever you say, whatever efforts you may put into by way of explanation, it's just a complete waste of time. That mind is already made up... 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HeliX Posted May 25 Share Posted May 25 16 minutes ago, quilp said: It's not a question of can't but won't. It doesn't suit him, as with countless other ideologues like him. Another colour that can be added to the technicolour dreamcoat he feels looks good on him. The continuous confirmation bias plucked from other media that he slavishly adheres to and posts up as proof of his righteousness means whatever you say, whatever efforts you may put into by way of explanation, it's just a complete waste of time. That mind is already made up... You're right, nobody is ever going to convince me that oppressing, starving and killing a population of people for 76 years is okay. Nobody is going to convince me that a military strategy that involves killing tens of thousands of civilians is going to reduce the level of insurgency and terrorism in the population, nor is it okay. The reason for that isn't ideology, it's that it's patently fucking obvious to anyone with an ounce of sense. 2 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Max Power Posted May 25 Share Posted May 25 3 hours ago, HeliX said: You're right, nobody is ever going to convince me that oppressing, starving and killing a population of people for 76 years is okay. Nobody is going to convince me that a military strategy that involves killing tens of thousands of civilians is going to reduce the level of insurgency and terrorism in the population, nor is it okay. The reason for that isn't ideology, it's that it's patently fucking obvious to anyone with an ounce of sense. You are making your argument particularly one sided really, colouring it to suit your beliefs rather than the reality of things. Anyway, here's a conversation about casualty statistics. I like the bit where it is asked, 'why would you believe Hamas over the IDF' meaning they both have reason to distort facts. The first casualty of war is the truth, and that's been sadly lacking since 1947. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
P.K. Posted May 25 Share Posted May 25 5 minutes ago, Max Power said: Anyway, here's a conversation about casualty statistics. I like the bit where it is asked, 'why would you believe Hamas over the IDF' meaning they both have reason to distort facts. The first casualty of war is the truth, and that's been sadly lacking since 1947 the rise to domination of modern man about 40,000 years ago. Fixed! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HeliX Posted May 25 Share Posted May 25 16 minutes ago, Max Power said: You are making your argument particularly one sided really, colouring it to suit your beliefs rather than the reality of things. Anyway, here's a conversation about casualty statistics. I like the bit where it is asked, 'why would you believe Hamas over the IDF' meaning they both have reason to distort facts. The first casualty of war is the truth, and that's been sadly lacking since 1947. You can't accuse me of bias and then share a video by Sam Harris! The Gaza Health Ministry figures are vetted and confirmed by umpteen outside agencies. Israel themselves have previously declared them accurate. Israel's figures are vetted and confirmed by... nobody except Israel. There's your reason to believe Hamas' figures over Israel's. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
P.K. Posted May 25 Share Posted May 25 3 hours ago, HeliX said: You're right, nobody is ever going to convince me that oppressing, starving and killing a population of people for 76 years is okay. Nobody is going to convince me that a military strategy that involves killing tens of thousands of civilians is going to reduce the level of insurgency and terrorism in the population, nor is it okay. The reason for that isn't ideology, it's that it's patently fucking obvious to anyone with an ounce of sense. What's with the 76 years? Had the surrounding Arab States co-operated to consolidate a Palestinian State around Israel everything would have been very different now. Instead their antisemitism meant they opted for the attempted destruction of Israel. Fail, several times. So the surrounding Arab States are as much to blame as the UN for the current situation and you know it. It's patently obvious to anyone with a gram of sense that the Arab Nations made a poor choice... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HeliX Posted May 25 Share Posted May 25 2 minutes ago, P.K. said: What's with the 76 years? Had the surrounding Arab States co-operated to consolidate a Palestinian State around Israel everything would have been very different now. Instead their antisemitism meant they opted for the attempted destruction of Israel. Fail, several times. So the surrounding Arab States are as much to blame as the UN for the current situation and you know it. It's patently obvious to anyone with a gram of sense that the Arab Nations made a poor choice... Is your memory that short that you don't remember we've discussed this a dozen times? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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