Israel vs. the rest of the world?

[HeliX]

47 minutes ago, P.K. said:

Why is it you don't understand this?

What the IDF is doing will create many more Hamas members than it removes. That is what I was stating by nothing positive coming of it.

[P.K.]

2 minutes ago, HeliX said:

What the IDF is doing will create many more Hamas members than it removes. That is what I was stating by nothing positive coming of it.

In other words business as usual...

You really are blinded to reality aren't you?

With Iran funding and arming and with their twisted Islamic ideology intent on the annihilation of Israel and the Israelis it's not about "if" the next assault comes but just a question of "when" the next assault comes.

The more Hamas they eliminate and the more Hamas infrastructure they destroy the further out they push the date of that next assault.

It really is that simple but as per you won't admit it...

[HeliX]

11 minutes ago, P.K. said:

In other words business as usual...

You really are blinded to reality aren't you?

With Iran funding and arming and with their twisted Islamic ideology intent on the annihilation of Israel and the Israelis it's not about "if" the next assault comes but just a question of "when" the next assault comes.

The more Hamas they eliminate and the more Hamas infrastructure they destroy the further out they push the date of that next assault.

It really is that simple but as per you won't admit it...

No, business worse than usual. Peace less possible than before. Continuation of suffering and death for civilians in the region, Israeli and Palestinian. The military "strategy" is a farce and a failure, indistinguishable from no strategy at all.

[Ham_N_Eggs]

The images coming out of Rafah right now are sickening. In revenge for 8 crappy rockets scratching Tel Aviv they fired several 2,000lb bombs into a refugee camp, slaughtering at least 40 people with camp now on fire. Headless corpses of children are on my Twitter newsfeed again. 

Edited May 26 by Ham_N_Eggs

[Freggyragh]

I've read plenty but haven't personal experience of the Arab-Jewish conflict— but it's only fair to start by stating that: I worked  for a couple of years with a non-Jewish Israeli employed bodyguard / mercenary, and likely spy, who I don't believe had a moral bone in his body. I have connections to a British serviceman who was murdered by Jewish terrorists. I once had considerable business dealings with a famous American Jewish Zionist who was and is a complete asshole. I don't like Islam or Zionism per se, but I haven't personal reason to be anything but well-disposed to Muslims and Jews, and have several close secular Jewish friends.

My opinion is that peace hasn't really been an option since the British betrayed the Arabs who drove the Ottoman Turks out of the Levant during the First World War. The British and French subsequently carved up the Arab lands and Britain then allowed the mass immigration of Europeans identifying as Jews into Palestine. The Brits screwed over their erstwhile Arab ally Hussein and allowed the monstrous Saud family to take over Saudi Arabia. The British also (led by fanatic Christian Zionist Orde Wingate) led Jewish paramilitary 'Special Night Squads' to terrorise, torture and murder Palestinian Arabs. After WW2 the British allowed even more Jewish Europeans into Palestine — so many that they themselves were driven out. 

So, I recognise that the Palestinians have had a raw deal, that the British screwed them (and the Arabs generally) over. I don't like Zionists. I recognise the wrongness of subsequent developments, such as the financial and military support Zionists have had from the US (and the collective West) and the continuing viciousness of the Israeli state towards the Palestinians. 

Nevertheless, I'm sympathetic to Israel's response to Hamas — who still have hostages. The 10/07 attack was horrific and Hamas are allied to Iran/Russia. 

Edited May 27 by Freggyragh

[P.K.]

1 hour ago, HeliX said:

No, business worse than usual. Peace less possible than before. Continuation of suffering and death for civilians in the region, Israeli and Palestinian. The military "strategy" is a farce and a failure, indistinguishable from no strategy at all.

The only way to break the downward spiral of violence is to end the preaching of hatred against the State of Israel and by accepting their right to exist. Egypt's President Anwar Sadat managed it even though it cost him his life. So it can be done.

Meanwhile back in Reality Land destroying the terrorist organisation that is Hamas and pushing out the date of the next inevitable Islamist assault on Israel is not failure.

But, of course, you'll never accept that because it doesn't suit your narrative...

[HeliX]

1 hour ago, P.K. said:

The only way to break the downward spiral of violence is to end the preaching of hatred against the State of Israel and by accepting their right to exist. Egypt's President Anwar Sadat managed it even though it cost him his life. So it can be done.

It's easy to convince people to hate the people bombing them. Do you think perhaps Israel should stop teaching hatred of Palestinians to its children?

Quote

Meanwhile back in Reality Land destroying the terrorist organisation that is Hamas and pushing out the date of the next inevitable Islamist assault on Israel is not failure.

But, of course, you'll never accept that because it doesn't suit your narrative...

By what metric is that working? Because there aren't many who think it is

https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/2024-04-18/ty-article-magazine/from-gaza-to-iran-the-netanyahu-government-is-endangering-israels-survival/0000018e-f25f-daad-a3de-fe7ff5790000?gift=9fae2d8be3dc4af0a19b34cbb9d70d76

 

[Non-Believer]

2 hours ago, Freggyragh said:

I've read plenty but haven't personal experience of the Arab-Jewish conflict— but it's only fair to start by stating that: I worked  for a couple of years with a non-Jewish Israeli employed bodyguard / mercenary, and likely spy, who I don't believe had a moral bone in his body. I have connections to a British serviceman who was murdered by Jewish terrorists. I once had considerable business dealings with a famous American Jewish Zionist who was and is a complete asshole. I don't like Islam or Zionism per se, but I haven't personal reason to be anything but well-disposed to Muslims and Jews, and have several close secular Jewish friends.

My opinion is that peace hasn't really been an option since the British betrayed the Arabs who drove the Ottoman Turks out of the Levant during the First World War. The British and French subsequently carved up the Arab lands and Britain then allowed the mass immigration of Europeans identifying as Jews into Palestine. The Brits screwed over their erstwhile Arab ally Hussein and allowed the monstrous Saud family to take over Saudi Arabia. The British also (led by fanatic Christian Zionist Orde Wingate) led Jewish paramilitary 'Special Night Squads' to terrorise, torture and murder Palestinian Arabs. After WW2 the British allowed even more Jewish Europeans into Palestine — so many that they themselves were driven out. 

So, I recognise that the Palestinians have had a raw deal, that the British screwed them (and the Arabs generally) over. I don't like Zionists. I recognise the wrongness of subsequently developments, such as the financial and military support Zionists have had from the US (and the collective West) and the continuing viciousness of the Israeli state towards the Palestinians. 

Nevertheless, I'm sympathetic to Israel's response to Hamas — who still have hostages. The 10/07 attack was horrific and Hamas are allied to Iran/Russia. 

The British (English) and their foreign policies have a great deal to answer for. Not only in Palestine but India, the Far East and closer to home.

[P.K.]

4 hours ago, Non-Believer said:

The British (English) and their foreign policies have a great deal to answer for. Not only in Palestine but India, the Far East and closer to home.

The British partition of India precipitated up to 2 million deaths.

However the Palestine partition was instigated and handled very badly by the UN.

[P.K.]

5 hours ago, HeliX said:

It's easy to convince people to hate the people bombing them. Do you think perhaps Israel should stop teaching hatred of Palestinians to its children?

I think you'll find the brutality of the October assault, the sheltering every night from rocket fire and being surrounded by a sea of enemies intent on the destruction of their country and it's people tells the kids all they need to know.

After all, going shopping with an assault rifle for self-protection is normal in Israel and easily understood...

5 hours ago, HeliX said:

By what metric is that working? Because there aren't many who think it is

 

The more terrorist infrastructure they destroy, the more weapons they find and the more of the Hamas leadership they eliminate will all make it harder for another organisation to grow afterwards.

This isn't rocket science...

Neither is the reality that a peaceful settlement can only ever come about when the surrounding Arab states concur that Israel has a right to exist. There's a reason why Lebanon, Syria and Egypt kept their Palestinian refugees sitting around stateless in camps with no future other than more of the same.

Can you guess what it is?

[RecklessAbandon]

On 5/25/2024 at 7:08 AM, P.K. said:

So this ends up on an SF commanders desk. The planners study the target location which will show entry and egress is very difficult, if anything goes wrong they will be isolated and surrounded by heavily armed terrorists. The people on the ground will end up in a firefight because their task is to kill the enemy. Which will probably mean casualties. This will have to be carried out hundreds of times in hundreds of locations because there are at least 30,000 Hamas terrorists in Gaza.

So the commander makes his decision - "Drop a bomb on it..."

Because anything else simply means his own men suffer unnecessary and totally avoidable casualties. Which is unacceptable because his own men trust their commanders to never put their lives at risk if it can be avoided. It's a tragedy for the innocents in the area but unfortunately Hamas just don't care.

Of course, if Hamas had not carried out their brutal assault and then taking their hostages with them scurried back to hide amongst the general population then none of this would have happened...

It's one of the terrorist's most potent weapons. Turning the morality of the democratic nations they attack against their own armed forces. We still see the results of "Bloody Sunday" reverberating around today some sixty years later.

You may recall that on the 7th March 1965 during a civil rights march the IRA very stupidly opened fire on the Parachute Regiment and when you shoot at the British Army they shoot back. I haven't the slightest doubt that at least one and possibly two of the troopers fired at targets when it was vary dubious that their lives were at risk. However it's very difficult to judge as the week before they could have been collecting up body parts in bin-bags after yet another IRA outrage against innocent civilians.

Strange but true you never hear about "Bloody Saturday" 15th August 1998 in Omagh when the IRA blew to a smash 29 people and injured over 200 others. Whatever happened to the moral outrage from that incident...?

Okay, let's say Hamas are in fact hiding out in Israel.  Simple enough concept, the IRA had cells all over the UK for decades.

Hamas fighters have instead of embedding themselves in Gaza, have deployed as cells across Israel and carry out their operations on Israeli soil.

Do you think the IDF and the Israeli government would be deploying city block destroying ordinance against Hamas in that scenario in the hope of killing 1 or 2 Hamas fighters or would they be deploying a more surgical approach?

What could possibly be the motivation to employ a less "collateral damage" approach?  Why would the IDF have a higher regard for the civilians of Israel than that of Gaza?

I'll give you a clue - the IDF and the Israeli government don't give a fuck about how many innocent Gazans they kill.  Each and every bomb and bullet has been fired with a "well, every dead Gazan is one less potential Hamas fighter" attitude.

One day you are going to have to look back at your support for a genocide, and reckon with yourself about how you came to be in support of it.

 

[RecklessAbandon]

Israel has killed just 30-35 percent of Hamas fighters, US reportedly believes | Middle East Eye

"105 journalists and 224 aid workers".*

"As of May 13, 2024 the UN reported that the 35,000 who have died in the conflict includes 7,797 children, 4,959 women and 1,924 elderly with confirmed identities"*

* - Casualties of the Israel–Hamas war - Wikipedia

Famine, disease, rampant destruction of civilian infrastructure and non-military targets (religious buildings, schools, hospitals, etc).

9 months in and what dies the IDF and the Israeli government have to show for it?

 

[P.K.]

17 hours ago, RecklessAbandon said:

Okay, let's say Hamas are in fact hiding out in Israel.  Simple enough concept, the IRA had cells all over the UK for decades.

Hamas fighters have instead of embedding themselves in Gaza, have deployed as cells across Israel and carry out their operations on Israeli soil.

Do you think the IDF and the Israeli government would be deploying city block destroying ordinance against Hamas in that scenario in the hope of killing 1 or 2 Hamas fighters or would they be deploying a more surgical approach?

What could possibly be the motivation to employ a less "collateral damage" approach?  Why would the IDF have a higher regard for the civilians of Israel than that of Gaza?

I'll give you a clue - the IDF and the Israeli government don't give a fuck about how many innocent Gazans they kill.  Each and every bomb and bullet has been fired with a "well, every dead Gazan is one less potential Hamas fighter" attitude.

One day you are going to have to look back at your support for a genocide, and reckon with yourself about how you came to be in support of it.

@RecklessAbandon

I normally just don't bother with nonsense. However...

I pointed out all the risks in a ground operation in Gaza. Entry and egress are very risky. An approach in vehicles could run into a Hamas roadblock. A helicopter would attract every terrorist and their gunfire for miles around. So casualty evacuation would be very risky. If anything goes wrong the small assault force could find themselves cut off and surrounded by terrorists with no way out. Nightmare time. Hence they take the low risk approach and  bomb the target.

In your scenario, terrorist cells operating in Israel, none of the above risks apply. Zip, zilch, zero, nada. If they had a mind to they could catch a bus to the target with a backup force, medics, spare ammo etc

So this:

"Do you think the IDF and the Israeli government would be deploying city block destroying ordinance against Hamas in that scenario in the hope of killing 1 or 2 Hamas fighters or would they be deploying a more surgical approach?

What could possibly be the motivation to employ a less "collateral damage" approach?  Why would the IDF have a higher regard for the civilians of Israel than that of Gaza?

I'll give you a clue - the IDF and the Israeli government don't give a fuck about how many innocent Gazans they kill.  Each and every bomb and bullet has been fired with a "well, every dead Gazan is one less potential Hamas fighter" attitude."

is total bollox.

Do you actually understand what you read? Because it seems to me you don't...

[TheTeapot]

Big Brain on display 

[The Phantom]

On 5/26/2024 at 10:04 PM, Freggyragh said:

Arabs who drove the Ottoman Turks out of the Levant during the First World War. The British and French subsequently carved up the Arab lands and Britain then allowed the mass immigration of Europeans identifying as Jews into Palestine. The Brits screwed over their erstwhile Arab ally Hussein and allowed the monstrous Saud family to take over Saudi Arabia. The British also (led by fanatic Christian Zionist Orde Wingate) led Jewish paramilitary 'Special Night Squads' to terrorise, torture and murder Palestinian Arabs. After WW2 the British allowed even more Jewish Europeans into Palestine — so many that they themselves were driven out. 

So, I recognise that the Palestinians have had a raw deal, that the British screwed them (and the Arabs generally) over. I don't like Zionists. I recognise the wrongness of subsequent developments, such as the financial and military support Zionists have had from the US (and the collective West) and the continuing viciousness of the Israeli state towards the Palestinians. 

 

Yeah but if you use the 'who was there first' argument, then actually it was the Jews.  Remember Jesus et al?  That was all in Israel.  Prior to that the Assyrians did it to the Jews (Israelites), who then came back around pre-Roman times.  Before once again being forced out by the Ottomans. 

On 5/26/2024 at 7:56 PM, HeliX said:

What the IDF is doing will create many more Hamas members than it removes. That is what I was stating by nothing positive coming of it.

Maybe.  It worked in Nazi Germany and Imperial Japan though.