HeliX Posted September 2 Share Posted September 2 26 minutes ago, P.K. said: When the insurgents embed themselves as deeply as possible in the general populace with no morals whatsoever about the human shields they are prepared to sacrifice for their ideals heavy civilian casualties are inevitable of course. Hamas are really quite disgusting in every possible way. @HeliX Bearing in mind the more Hamas that are removed the further out it pushes any further assaults on Israel what are your "further options" that will bring a lasting peace to the festering sore that is Gaza? We've been through this dozens of times. The route to peace is political not militaristic. Creating more orphans who will be easily and understandably radicalised against Israel does not in fact make Israel safer. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RecklessAbandon Posted September 2 Share Posted September 2 1 hour ago, P.K. said: When the insurgents embed themselves as deeply as possible in the general populace with no morals whatsoever about the human shields they are prepared to sacrifice for their ideals heavy civilian casualties are inevitable of course. Hamas are really quite disgusting in every possible way. You would have thought that by now, the IDF would have found a way to kill "terrorists" that doesn't involve killing tens of thousands of innocents. But then, that was never the point. To the IDF (and the likes of PK), the only good Palestinian/Gazan is a dead Palestinian/Gazan. Can't grow up to be a "terrorist" if you don't get to grow up I suppose. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chinahand Posted September 2 Share Posted September 2 14 minutes ago, RecklessAbandon said: You would have thought that by now, the IDF would have found a way to kill "terrorists" that doesn't involve killing tens of thousands of innocents. Sadly I don't think any military undertaking an army level assault on a city containing a ruthless and prepared enemy has found such a way. And I think it is clear that Hamas does embed itself within civilian infrastructure and amongst civilians. Some people say the current slaughter is unprecedented, nay a genocide, others say the non-combatant to combatant kill ratio is remarkably low. I suspect it is about average. Some are worse - Berlin 1945, Grozny 1995, Syria multiple places 2011-present - non of these were called genocides. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RecklessAbandon Posted September 2 Share Posted September 2 41 minutes ago, Chinahand said: Sadly I don't think any military undertaking an army level assault on a city containing a ruthless and prepared enemy has found such a way. And I think it is clear that Hamas does embed itself within civilian infrastructure and amongst civilians. Some people say the current slaughter is unprecedented, nay a genocide, others say the non-combatant to combatant kill ratio is remarkably low. I suspect it is about average. Some are worse - Berlin 1945, Grozny 1995, Syria multiple places 2011-present - non of these were called genocides. At some point though, the ratio of Hamas terrorists to people who now just fighting to survive and prevent their own genocide is getting perilously close. This slaughter has been engineered perfectly. The IDF sought to create a self sustaining invasion "we're only here to kill Hamas - oh whoops - we killed tens of thousands of innocents and created a whole bunch of people who are so upset with us that they will pick up arms against us - we'll just classify them as Hamas so we can keep the invasion going until all the "terrorists" are dead and we can move in settlers" And the big difference between Berlin, Grozny, etc is that there is real time video evidence of war crimes and genocide dripping out of the conflict zone (despite the best efforts of the IDF to prevent it). As mentioned in the thread before, if the IDF were truly concerned with reducing civilian casualties, they would avoid munitions designed to destroy entire sections of a city. They have not, as it is easier to kill lots of people and flatten existing structures if they do deploy such munitions. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HeliX Posted September 2 Share Posted September 2 1 hour ago, Chinahand said: And I think it is clear that Hamas does embed itself within civilian infrastructure and amongst civilians. There isn't a single bit of Gaza that couldn't be described as civilian infrastructure and amongst civilians. Which is convenient if you're the Knesset trying to handwave away obvious war crimes. Quote I suspect it is about average. Some are worse - Berlin 1945, Grozny 1995, Syria multiple places 2011-present - non of these were called genocides. It's called a genocide because it's a concerted effort to displace or kill an entire population. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
P.K. Posted September 2 Share Posted September 2 1 hour ago, HeliX said: It's called a genocide because it's a concerted effort to displace or kill an entire population. @HeliX In which case they're doing a really shit job of it as they still have 98.2% of the population to go. Of course, the Hamas run Health Ministry deliberately make no distinction between civilians and "Palestinian Resistance Fighters" who have died in the conflict to make the numbers of civilians killed look as bad as possible. Notice you don't actually have any "further options" although you expect others to have them... My best option would immediately end the conflict. It consists of Hamas stops pretending that they are "resisting" Israel for the "good" of the palestinian people by killing Israelis with rockets and a very brutal assault and then they simply surrender... So why don't they do that...? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HeliX Posted September 2 Share Posted September 2 21 minutes ago, P.K. said: @HeliX In which case they're doing a really shit job of it as they still have 98.2% of the population to go. Of course, the Hamas run Health Ministry deliberately make no distinction between civilians and "Palestinian Resistance Fighters" who have died in the conflict to make the numbers of civilians killed look as bad as possible. Displacing 2million people. The death toll won't be known for a long time. Quote Notice you don't actually have any "further options" although you expect others to have them... I've posted them many times in this thread. Quote My best option would immediately end the conflict. It consists of Hamas stops pretending that they are "resisting" Israel for the "good" of the palestinian people by killing Israelis with rockets and a very brutal assault and then they simply surrender... So why don't they do that...? Because they know that won't stop Israel's ongoing occupation and oppression of Palestinian territory and the Palestinian people. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RecklessAbandon Posted September 2 Share Posted September 2 45 minutes ago, P.K. said: Of course, the Hamas run Health Ministry deliberately make no distinction between civilians and "Palestinian Resistance Fighters" who have died in the conflict to make the numbers of civilians killed look as bad as possible. Demonstrably false, as multiple external international agencies have been working with the Health Ministry to verify the information and fact checking. The same cannot be said for the information coming out of the IDF and Israeli Government. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RecklessAbandon Posted September 2 Share Posted September 2 47 minutes ago, P.K. said: My best option would immediately end the conflict. It consists of Hamas stops pretending that they are "resisting" Israel for the "good" of the palestinian people by killing Israelis with rockets and a very brutal assault and then they simply surrender... So why don't they do that...? Maybe because they ("they" being Hamas or the hundreds of thousands of Palestinian/Gazan people) don't want their homes blasted or bulldozed to make room for another illegal Israeli settlement (with the non-explicit support of the Government). Israel could stop this any time, but we all know they won't until its flattened and any resistance to settling is crushed. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shake me up Judy Posted September 2 Share Posted September 2 Hamas could stop this any time too. All they have to do is release the hostages; propose an immediate ceasefire with a permanent and serious peace plan attached; and a sensible two-state solution that's equitable to all parties. Not going to happen though is it. Now or ever. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HeliX Posted September 2 Share Posted September 2 Just now, Shake me up Judy said: Hamas could stop this any time too. All they have to do is release the hostages; propose an immediate ceasefire with a permanent and serious peace plan attached; and a sensible two-state solution that's equitable to all parties. Not going to happen though is it. Now or ever. Hamas have proposed and accepted deals based on the above. Israel has rejected them in favour of continued invasion. Almost like they want the land, not the hostages. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shake me up Judy Posted September 2 Share Posted September 2 Just now, HeliX said: Hamas have proposed and accepted deals based on the above. Israel has rejected them in favour of continued invasion. Almost like they want the land, not the hostages. Just now, HeliX said: Hamas have proposed and accepted deals based on the above. Israel has rejected them in favour of continued invasion. Almost like they want the land, not the hostages. Let's see them then. Provide the link, let's see if the deals are serious, and we'll carry on the discussion. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HeliX Posted September 2 Share Posted September 2 Just now, Shake me up Judy said: Let's see them then. Provide the link, let's see if the deals are serious, and we'll carry on the discussion. May: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-68964108 July: https://www.france24.com/en/middle-east/20240706-hamas-drops-key-demand-to-accept-phased-us-deal-on-ceasefire-hostages 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HeliX Posted September 2 Share Posted September 2 February: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-68232883 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shake me up Judy Posted September 2 Share Posted September 2 Still waiting to see your link to Hamas proposals for a sustainable long term peace plan and an equitable two-state solution. The links you've posted are merely for a temporary ceasefire from which they can regroup, recruit and redouble for the next phase of the struggle. Of course they want a ceasefire while the IDF are giving them a pasting. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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