HeliX Posted September 2 Share Posted September 2 3 minutes ago, P.K. said: Of course, the "ceasefire deal" put forward by Hamas has been done with the understanding that it will be totally unacceptable to Israel. Israel don't want one. Quote So Hamas won't surrender because they exist to end the occupation and oppression of "Palestinian territory" that never actually existed in the first place. What total bolox. The same old same old "from the river to the sea" never in a gazillion years "justification" for keeping the conflict against Israel going ad infinitum. This shite again. Bit weird to have a British Mandate for a territory that doesn't exist, but whatever stupid semantic argument you want to make for what territory "exists" or doesn't, the facts are that the Zionists stole land from the people living there, and killed or expelled them in grotesque number. That is not acceptable and is the cause of the conflict. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
P.K. Posted September 2 Share Posted September 2 Not again! After the holocaust the UN decided that Jews needed a "safe haven" if you like. The rest, as they say, is history. Had the Arab League concentrated on consolidating Palestinian territory then things could have been very different. But instead they concentrated on the destruction of the brand new State of Israel. Fail. Hence the mess we have today. The real tragedy is that most of what was the Arab League are perfectly ok with the current status quo when they shouldn't be and everything current is not being driven by Arabs but by Persians in Tehran... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HeliX Posted September 2 Share Posted September 2 2 minutes ago, P.K. said: Not again! After the holocaust the UN decided that Jews needed a "safe haven" if you like. The rest, as they say, is history. Had the Arab League concentrated on consolidating Palestinian territory then things could have been very different. But instead they concentrated on the destruction of the brand new State of Israel. Fail. Hence the mess we have today. The real tragedy is that most of what was the Arab League are perfectly ok with the current status quo when they shouldn't be and everything current is not being driven by Arabs but by Persians in Tehran... The Zionist project started significantly before WW2. The Arab Israeli war was because the Zionists kept massacring civilians. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HeliX Posted September 2 Share Posted September 2 Shall we just skip the bit where I repeatedly have to remind you of the history, and you change the discussion point each post and eventually end in saying that Gaza is a road to nowhere so it's fine that they're all being killed? 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
P.K. Posted September 2 Share Posted September 2 11 minutes ago, HeliX said: Shall we just skip the bit where I repeatedly have to remind you of the history, and you change the discussion point each post and eventually end in saying that Gaza is a road to nowhere so it's fine that they're all being killed? For once give your arse a chance. We both know the UN voted for the partition. We both know that the Arab League have a great deal to answer for. We also both know that Gaza is a road to nowhere because the inhabitants are stateless courtesy of the Arab League. We also both know that Hamas are bankrolled by Tehran who will do anything to bring down the "great" and the "little" Satan. We both know that Hamas are totally amoral and will embed themselves as deeply as they can into the "civilian" population. We both know that the Hamas assault was bound to result in the IDF taking the fight to the enemy with inevitably high non-combatant casualties. Where we differ is, even after the deliberately brutal Hamas assault, you still seem to think a one-state solution is the answer when it's been obvious for years that it's a complete non-starter. Irrespective of the history Tehran's proxy Hamas kicked this off. That is inescapable... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HeliX Posted September 2 Share Posted September 2 1 minute ago, P.K. said: For once give your arse a chance. We both know the UN voted for the partition. We both know that the Arab League have a great deal to answer for. We also both know that Gaza is a road to nowhere because the inhabitants are stateless courtesy of the Arab League. We also both know that Hamas are bankrolled by Tehran who will do anything to bring down the "great" and the "little" Satan. We both know that Hamas are totally amoral and will embed themselves as deeply as they can into the "civilian" population. We both know that the Hamas assault was bound to result in the IDF taking the fight to the enemy with inevitably high non-combatant casualties. Where we differ is, even after the deliberately brutal Hamas assault, you still seem to think a one-state solution is the answer when it's been obvious for years that it's a complete non-starter. Irrespective of the history Tehran's proxy Hamas kicked this off. That is inescapable... What did you expect to happen with Israel frequently "mowing the grass", sniping civilians, creating more illegal settlements on the West Bank, dispossessing more people of their land and homes? There was always going to be some sort of horrendous violence at some point in those conditions. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
P.K. Posted September 2 Share Posted September 2 12 minutes ago, HeliX said: What did you expect to happen with Israel frequently "mowing the grass", sniping civilians, creating more illegal settlements on the West Bank, dispossessing more people of their land and homes? There was always going to be some sort of horrendous violence at some point in those conditions. The West Bank is NOT Gaza. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HeliX Posted September 2 Share Posted September 2 Just now, P.K. said: The West Bank is NOT Gaza. Yes, obviously. Which makes it even more bizarre that Israel, who is "defending" herself against Gaza keeps attacking and stealing land from the West Bank. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
P.K. Posted September 2 Share Posted September 2 7 minutes ago, HeliX said: Yes, obviously. Which makes it even more bizarre that Israel, who is "defending" herself against Gaza keeps attacking and stealing land from the West Bank. What's really bizarre is you trying to connect the Hamas assault which resulted in the IDF incursion into Gaza with zealots trying it on in the West Bank. You need a re-boot... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HeliX Posted September 2 Share Posted September 2 1 minute ago, P.K. said: What's really bizarre is you trying to connect the Hamas assault which resulted in the IDF incursion into Gaza with zealots trying it on in the West Bank. You need a re-boot... Because to Israel they're the same. Land and people that they're entitled to steal and displace, respectively. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RecklessAbandon Posted September 3 Share Posted September 3 10 hours ago, P.K. said: ...incursion into Gaza.. You mean re-settlement at the end of a tank? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RecklessAbandon Posted September 3 Share Posted September 3 Israeli outpost settlers rapidly seizing West Bank land - BBC News Nothing to see here, move along, move along. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chinahand Posted September 3 Share Posted September 3 I hope we can all agree that Palestinian leadership has been disastrous. Time and time again leading their people to disaster and defeat. I'm deeply concerned by the essentialism in this debate. The Palestinians are a diverse and multifaceted community as are the Israelis. I've always hoped that democratic and moderate voices in both communities could find agreement. The peace treaties with Egypt and Jordan, the Oslo accords and the later Abraham accords were signs of hope, but those wanting uncompromising violence have unleashed the dogs of war bringing misery to millions. My view that was a vast miscalculation by Hamas and the result has far far weakened their cause. Hamas' cause isn't compromise and two communities learning to live in peace together. By taking that course they have hugely damaged, maybe fatally, the hope of a two state solution. Which is the only real prospect of a peaceful solution. The next Israeli elections and the next year are going to be vital on reigning in the men of violence on both sides. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
P.K. Posted September 3 Share Posted September 3 5 hours ago, Chinahand said: By taking that course they have hugely damaged, maybe fatally, the hope of a two state solution. Which is the only real prospect of a peaceful solution. Unfortunately it would seem too many people just don't get that... Plus Tehran don't want a peaceful solution which means they will do everything they can via their proxies to make sure it doesn't happen As we have seen... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
P.K. Posted September 3 Share Posted September 3 18 hours ago, HeliX said: Because to Israel they're the same. Land and people that they're entitled to steal and displace, respectively. No they don't view them as the same. It's bleeding obvious to anyone with any common sense that Hamas and the Palestinian Authority are worlds apart. The fact remains that Israel ended up in control of the west bank due to an attempt by the Arab League to destroy the State of Israel. So yet another fuck-up by the AL has led to the situation we have today. @HeliX Time you started bitching at the real villains of the piece... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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