P.K. Posted September 28 Share Posted September 28 58 minutes ago, HeliX said: Yeah there certainly is a violent terrorist entity in the region. Yes and that violent terrorist entity in the region has been much reduced. Nobody likes terrorism so let's all hope the IDF finish the job... 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HeliX Posted September 28 Share Posted September 28 8 minutes ago, P.K. said: Yes and that violent terrorist entity in the region has been much reduced. Nobody likes terrorism so let's all hope the IDF finish the job... You seem fine with terrorism as long as its performed by a western ally. If the roles were reversed in this conflict absolutely nobody would have any difficulty seeing it for what it is, even you. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chinahand Posted September 28 Share Posted September 28 Hezbollah should be North of the Litani River. It should not be firing missiles into Northern Israel. If this was the case the Lebanon border would be like the Egyptian and Jordanian borders. Peaceful with few issues. Israel doesn't pick fights for no reason. Pretending it does is childish. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HeliX Posted September 28 Share Posted September 28 5 minutes ago, Chinahand said: Hezbollah should be North of the Litani River. It should not be firing missiles into Northern Israel. If this was the case the Lebanon border would be like the Egyptian and Jordanian borders. Peaceful with few issues. Israel doesn't pick fights for no reason. Pretending it does is childish. Israel is occupying Lebanese territory, but it's Hezbollah's fault for not being far enough north in Lebanese territory? Israel is occupying multiple Arab countries in the middle east. That is de facto picking fights. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chinahand Posted September 28 Share Posted September 28 And Israel has successfully negotiated and returned territory to both Egypt and Jordan. Those peace settlements have worked because neither side has allowed terrorist attacks and violence across their borders. Israel can and does live in peace with it's neighbours when they live in peace with it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HeliX Posted September 28 Share Posted September 28 1 minute ago, Chinahand said: And Israel has successfully negotiated and returned territory to both Egypt and Jordan. Those peace settlements have worked because neither side has allowed terrorist attacks and violence across their borders. Israel can and does live in peace with it's neighbours when they live in peace with it. You mean when Israel returns the land its occupying then there's peace. In cases where Israel hasn't returned the land, there isn't peace. Occupation is aggression. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chinahand Posted September 28 Share Posted September 28 Oh goodness, yeah Israel for no reason whatsoever is the aggressor. There can be no other explanation as to why Israel held Arab territory. Egypt, Syria, Jordan, Iraq, Iran and Hezbollah were totally innocent and nasty aggressive Israel unprovoked attacked them. Very nuanced understanding of the issues there, HeliX. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
P.K. Posted September 28 Share Posted September 28 (edited) 53 minutes ago, HeliX said: You mean when Israel returns the land its occupying then there's peace. In cases where Israel hasn't returned the land, there isn't peace. Occupation is aggression. Oh dear. Not your totally unrealistic "single state" solution again is it? Edited September 28 by P.K. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HeliX Posted September 28 Share Posted September 28 1 hour ago, Chinahand said: Oh goodness, yeah Israel for no reason whatsoever is the aggressor. There can be no other explanation as to why Israel held Arab territory. Egypt, Syria, Jordan, Iraq, Iran and Hezbollah were totally innocent and nasty aggressive Israel unprovoked attacked them. Very nuanced understanding of the issues there, HeliX. You appreciate that Hezbollah didn't even exist until Israel invaded and occupied Lebanon right? They literally exist due to Israeli aggression. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HeliX Posted September 28 Share Posted September 28 1 hour ago, P.K. said: Oh dear. Not your totally unrealistic "single state" solution again is it? I don't really care what the solution is as long as everyone in the region has the same rights. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chinahand Posted September 28 Share Posted September 28 7 minutes ago, HeliX said: You appreciate that Hezbollah didn't even exist until Israel invaded and occupied Lebanon right? Yeah, I know the background. I've quoted Robert Fisk's Pity the Nation multiple times in these threads and the driving out of the PLO from Lebanon is one of my formative political events. The defeat of the PLO led to the Oslo Accords and the beginnings of a Palestinian rather than an Arab settlement. I fully agree and understand the Shia awakening - financed, trained and manned by Revolutionary Iran - has been a disaster for Israel and the people of southern Lebanon and agree Israel's occupation of that area was a disaster and along with the Iranian Revolution precipitated the current situation. Israel rightly withdrew but the political and sociological forces it's occupation created will haunt it until a lasting settlement can be found. I'm all for a nuanced understanding of complex issues not childish sloganeering, but please Hezbollah is a part of the problem and a far harder one than Likud which is subject to democratic oversight. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HeliX Posted September 28 Share Posted September 28 1 minute ago, Chinahand said: Yeah, I know the background. I've quoted Robert Fisk's Pity the Nation multiple times in these threads and the driving out of the PLO from Lebanon is one of my formative political events. The defeat of the PLO led to the Oslo Accords and the beginnings of a Palestinian rather than an Arab settlement. I fully agree and understand the Shia awakening - financed, trained and manned by Revolutionary Iran - has been a disaster for Israel and the people of southern Lebanon and agree Israel's occupation of that area was a disaster and along with the Iranian Revolution precipitated the current situation. Israel rightly withdrew but the political and sociological forces it's occupation created will haunt it until a lasting settlement can be found. I'm all for a nuanced understanding of complex issues not childish sloganeering, but please Hezbollah is a part of the problem and a far harder one than Likud which is subject to democratic oversight. A reasonable post until the last line. "Likud which is subject to democratic oversight." What oversight? Netanyahu gave the order to level 6 apartment complexes in Lebanon from the UN in New York. International law has been shown to be a toothless joke for the last 11 months. Israeli war crimes have been free for all to see, with nothing but "Oh boy I wish they wouldn't do that with the weapons and cash I'm going to continue to hand over to them in spades" from Western leaders. Imagine Hamas was dumping lorries full of decomposed Jewish bodies in Israel. Just imagine the international reaction for one second. And yet Israel is doing exactly that with Palestinian bodies in Gaza. Who knows where they came from, how long they've been in Israeli possession, and Israel is piling decomposed Palestinian bodies into trucks and dumping them in Gaza. Imagine the reaction if Hezbollah launched a "precision strike" which instantly destroyed 6 apartment complexes filled with civilians on a Friday night in Tel Aviv. There would rightly be an instant worldwide reaction, outcry, and retaliation from Western forces. And yet Israel can do it with impunity and noone cares. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chinahand Posted September 28 Share Posted September 28 2 hours ago, HeliX said: Imagine Hamas was dumping lorries full of decomposed Jewish bodies in Israel. Just imagine the international reaction for one second. And yet Israel is doing exactly that with Palestinian bodies in Gaza. Who knows where they came from, how long they've been in Israeli possession, and Israel is piling decomposed Palestinian bodies into trucks and dumping them in Gaza. This gives better details: https://www.timesofisrael.com/israel-said-to-return-88-bodies-to-gaza-hamas-health-officials-refuse-to-bury-them/ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
P.K. Posted September 28 Share Posted September 28 4 hours ago, HeliX said: I don't really care what the solution is as long as everyone in the region has the same rights. @HeliX How are you going to achieve that when the stated aim of Hamas, Hezbollah, Iran, the Arab League etc etc is the destruction of the State of Israel and it's people...? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HeliX Posted September 28 Share Posted September 28 1 hour ago, P.K. said: @HeliX How are you going to achieve that when the stated aim of Hamas, Hezbollah, Iran, the Arab League etc etc is the destruction of the State of Israel and it's people...? Egypt and Jordan are in the Arab League and people seem to like pointing out that they've achieved peace. But the answer, still, is political solutions and negotiation. Military action does not, and can not work. As the last 60 years has proven. As the next 60 will prove as long as Western liberals keep harping on about Israel's right to defend itself any time it does an abhorrent war crime. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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