P.K. Posted September 29 Share Posted September 29 14 hours ago, HeliX said: Egypt and Jordan are in the Arab League and people seem to like pointing out that they've achieved peace. But the answer, still, is political solutions and negotiation. Military action does not, and can not work. As the last 60 years has proven. As the next 60 will prove as long as Western liberals keep harping on about Israel's right to defend itself any time it does an abhorrent war crime. As per you're forgetting the bit about Israel's right to defend itself. Never mind. I'm sure you'll grasp it eventually... 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HeliX Posted September 29 Share Posted September 29 (edited) 13 minutes ago, P.K. said: As per you're forgetting the bit about Israel's right to defend itself. Never mind. I'm sure you'll grasp it eventually... It's mentioned in the post you quoted. It's also not a path to peace, nor going to make Israel safer. Nor do occupiers actually have a right to defend themselves under international law, because international law rightly considers occupation as aggression. Edited September 29 by HeliX Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HeliX Posted September 29 Share Posted September 29 Lol Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
P.K. Posted September 29 Share Posted September 29 2 hours ago, HeliX said: It's mentioned in the post you quoted. It's also not a path to peace, nor going to make Israel safer. Nor do occupiers actually have a right to defend themselves under international law, because international law rightly considers occupation as aggression. So the State of Israel is an "occupation" is it? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HeliX Posted September 29 Share Posted September 29 (edited) 35 minutes ago, P.K. said: So the State of Israel is an "occupation" is it? No, Israel occupying the West Bank, Gaza, Syria, and parts of Lebanon is. Edited September 29 by HeliX Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
P.K. Posted September 29 Share Posted September 29 1 hour ago, HeliX said: No, Israel occupying the West Bank, Gaza, Syria, and parts of Lebanon is. "To the victor belong the spoils" you have heard of this no doubt. Especially when the "spoils" were bought with Jewish blood... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HeliX Posted September 29 Share Posted September 29 6 minutes ago, P.K. said: "To the victor belong the spoils" you have heard of this no doubt. Especially when the "spoils" were bought with Jewish blood... Big chunk of Ukraine is Russian now then is it? Putin will be delighted to know you think that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
P.K. Posted September 29 Share Posted September 29 1 hour ago, HeliX said: Big chunk of Ukraine is Russian now then is it? Putin will be delighted to know you think that. Apples and oranges. Putin invaded to gain territory. The UN partition created Israel. Instead of the Arab League consolidating Palestinian land they chose war. Several times. Hence the mess we have today. Try again why don't you... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HeliX Posted September 29 Share Posted September 29 Just now, P.K. said: Apples and oranges. Putin invaded to gain territory. The UN partition created Israel. Instead of the Arab League consolidating Palestinian land they chose war. Several times. Hence the mess we have today. Try again why don't you... Is Israel inside those borders that were created? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Phantom Posted September 29 Share Posted September 29 6 hours ago, HeliX said: Lol A remarkable amount of the Arab/Muslim world is actually celebrating this. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HeliX Posted September 29 Share Posted September 29 (edited) 1 minute ago, The Phantom said: A remarkable amount of the Arab/Muslim world is actually celebrating this. Probably not the families of the people who lived in those 6 apartment buildings, mind. Seems like Israel has begun a ground invasion too. Sorry, "border movements", because we don't use words like invasion or occupation about western allies. Edited September 29 by HeliX Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chinahand Posted September 29 Share Posted September 29 The FT app kindly gave me non-subscriber access to this article, no idea if anyone else can read this in full, but it's very interesting. https://www.ft.com/content/6638813e-e246-4409-9a38-95bf60a220a8 In its 2006 war with Hizbollah, Israel tried to kill Hassan Nasrallah three times. One air strike missed - the leader of Hizbollah had earlier left the spot. The others failed to penetrate the concrete reinforcements of his underground bunker. On Friday night, the Israeli military ... tracked Nasrallah to a bunker built deep below an apartment complex in south Beirut, and dropped as many as 80 bombs to make sure he was killed. ... after the surprising failure of its far more powerful military to deliver a knockout blow against Hizbollah in 2006 ... for the next two decades, Israel's sophisticated signals intelligence Unit 8200 ... mined vast amounts of data to map out the fast growing militia. ... Israeli intelligence had for nearly a decade referred to Hizbollah as a "terror army", rather than a terrorist group "like Osama bin Laden in a cave" ... it was a conceptual shift that forced Israel to study Hizbollah as closely and broadly as it had the Syrian army ... As Hizbollah grew in strength, including in 2012 deploying to Syria to help Assad quell an armed uprising against his dictatorship, it gave Israel the opportunity to take its measure. .. who was in charge of ... operations, who was getting promoted, who was corrupt, and who had just returned from an unexplained trip. Syria was the beginning of the expansion of Hizbollah ... That weakened their internal control mechanisms and opened the door for infiltration on a big level. ... The complacency and arrogance was accompanied by a shift in its membership - they started to become flabby. ... Israel had a lot of capabilities, a lot of intelligence stored waiting to be used ... We could have used these capabilities way longer ago ... but we didn't. That patience appears to have paid off for the military. For more than 10 months, Israel and Hizbollah traded cross-border fire, while Israel killed a few hundred of Hizbollah's low-level operatives ... That appears to have lulled Nasrallah into thinking that the two arch-rivals were involved in a new sort of brinkmanship, with well-defined red lines that could be managed until Israel agreed a ceasefire in Gaza with Hamas, allowing Hizbollah an "off-ramp" that would allow it to agree to a ceasefire with Israel. But even the possibility that Hizbollah would attempt the same sort of cross border raid that Hamas had successfully pulled off on October 7 ... was enough for Israel to evacuate ... some 60,000 Israelis. To create the conditions for their return ... Netanyahu appears to have unleashed Israel's more advanced offensive capabilities ... It culminated on Friday with Narallah's assassination, a feat that Netanyahu's predecessor, Ehud Olmert, had authorised in 2006 and the IDF had failed to deliver. This reminds a bit of a section in Sunzi's Art of War: https://www.yellowbridge.com/onlinelit/artofwar06.php 27 人皆知我所以胜之形，而莫知吾所以制胜之形。 All men can see the tactics whereby I conquer, but what none can see is the strategy out of which victory is evolved. 28 故其战胜不复，而应形于无穷。 Do not repeat the tactics which have gained you one victory, but let your methods be regulated by the infinite variety of circumstances. 29 夫兵形象水，水之形避高而趋下， Military tactics are like unto water; for water in its natural course runs away from high places and hastens downwards. 30 兵之形，避实而击虚， So in war, the way is to avoid what is strong and to strike at what is weak. 31 水因地而制流，兵应敌而制胜。 Water shapes its course according to the nature of the ground over which it flows; the soldier works out his victory in relation to the foe whom he is facing. 32 故兵无常势，水无常形， Therefore, just as water retains no constant shape, so in warfare there are no constant conditions. 33 能因敌变化而取胜者，谓之神。 He who can modify his tactics in relation to his opponent and thereby succeed in winning, may be called a heaven-born captain. 34 故五行无常，胜四时无常位，日有短长，月有死生。 The five elements (water, fire, wood, metal, earth) are not always equally predominant; the four seasons make way for each other in turn. There are short days and long; the moon has its periods of waning and waxing. The main issue though, this isn't the end of the conflict. It isn't even the end of the beginning. These are very dangerous times ... I'm not going to invoke any fake quotes about Chinese curses ... but we all know there's an element of truth in them! Pity the people of this benighted region. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wrighty Posted September 29 Share Posted September 29 Israel bombing Houthis in Yemen. Does that mean they're friends with the Saudis now? This is all so confusing. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hoopsaa Posted September 29 Share Posted September 29 (edited) 30 minutes ago, wrighty said: Israel bombing Houthis in Yemen. Does that mean they're friends with the Saudis now? This is all so confusing. No, it means the Houthis have been firing missiles at Israel. Although some commentators believe the pogrom of October 7th was ordered to stymie the growing accord between Saudi Arabia and Israel. Edited September 29 by hoopsaa Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
P.K. Posted September 29 Share Posted September 29 6 hours ago, HeliX said: Is Israel inside those borders that were created? Dear me you just don't get it do you. Probably deliberately. Using the Golan Heights as an example there is no way Israel is ever giving them back. They are a very strategic position where conventional artillery could rain shells down into Israel creating mayhem. Plus an awful lot of blood was spilled on them when Israel amazingly managed to stop a large force of Syrian armour pouring over them and into Israel. So Israel holding the Golan Heights is the new normal for very easily understood reasons. Get used to it... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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