Israel vs. the rest of the world?

[HeliX]

15 minutes ago, P.K. said:

Excuse me but the UN acknowledges that Israel is the Occupying Power of Gaza whose responsibilities include security. So they are in Gaza hunting down a terrorist organisation which is part of their remit and is perfectly legal. You should applaud their actions as you kept banging on about how many in Gaza were not responsible for Hamas being in charge...

As Israel has a right to protect itself an incursion into Lebanon is within the law as well. 

Blowing up tens of thousands of civilians does not count as benefiting Gaza's security.

Israel does not have a right to defend itself against places it is occupying.

[Chinahand]

19 hours ago, HeliX said:

It's not me who's not getting it.

The points I made:

Occupiers have no right to self defence in law (true)

Israel is currently occupying several Arab territories (true)

You'll note PK is aware of this and doesn't bother trying to address it, but rather to obfuscate.

Oh, you arm chair expert.

Occupiers have no right to self defence. Don't talk tosh? Occupation is a well recognised and understood concept in international law. France was occupied by Wellington after Waterloo, the occupations of Germany and Japan by the USA, USSR, UK and France. If these troops were attacked they of course had a right of self defence?

And believe it or not Causi Belli are complex and long lasting - you persist in insisting Arab nations had no role in fighting and losing to Israel in 1948, 1956, 1967, 1973 etc. You deny Israel could legitimately defend itself against the Arab militaries and yes the result is war and occupation. Well recognised and understood consequences of war going back centuries.

Also this is an issue for nation states.

Bandit terrorism by non-state actors who do not follow the Geneva Conventions can be dealt with summarily. Neither Hamas or Hezbollah have any standing as national armies. Just like anti-piracy actions there is nothing stopping military action to defeat such illegal formations.

An Lebanese general was just on the Channel 4 News lamenting the destruction Hezbollah is bringing to his country. Of course a country has a right to take military action against terrorism committed by non-state actors.

You are delusional to pretend otherwise. Quelle surprise!

[HeliX]

2 minutes ago, Chinahand said:

Oh, you arm chair expert.

Occupiers have no right to self defence. Don't talk tosh? Occupation is a well recognised and understood concept in international law. France was occupied by Wellington after Waterloo, the occupations of Germany and Japan by the USA, USSR, UK and France. If these troops were attacked they of course had a right of self defence?

Why are you conflating troops being allowed to defend themselves when attacked with countries being allowed to decimate the place they're occupying based on the occupied having resistance?

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And believe it or not Causi Belli are complex and long lasting - you persist in insisting Arab nations had no role in fighting and losing to Israel in 1948, 1956, 1967, 1973 etc.

No, I don't and haven't.

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You deny Israel could legitimately defend itself against the Arab militaries and yes the result is war and occupation. Well recognised and understood consequences of war going back centuries.

No, I don't.

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Bandit terrorism by non-state actors who do not follow the Geneva Conventions can be dealt with summarily. Neither Hamas or Hezbollah have any standing as national armies. Just like anti-piracy actions there is nothing stopping military action to defeat such illegal formations.

If Israel was only killing Hamas and Hezbollah you may have an argument.

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An Lebanese general was just on the Channel 4 News lamenting the destruction Hezbollah is bringing to his country. Of course a country has a right to take military action against terrorism committed by non-state actors.

They killed hundreds of civilians to kill a Hezbollah leader. Who they admitted they killed because he wouldn't agree to a ceasefire that didn't include Israel leaving Gaza.

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You are delusional to pretend otherwise. Quelle surprise!

Pisspoor to end a post where you either grossly misrepresent or grossly misunderstand most of my posts with this.

[Chinahand]

HeliX, I cannot get over your arm-chair fuck-wittery.

Even a Nazi soldier in occupied France has a legitimate right to engage in a battle against attacking British Commandos.

No one is going to say they don't have a right to engage in battle. You are delusional.

They are engaged in War. You can argue about whether there is a legitimate Causus Belli but you can't pretend they can't protect themselves when being attacked. You are fatally muddled.

[HeliX]

2 minutes ago, Chinahand said:

HeliX, I cannot get over your arm-chair fuck-wittery.

Even a Nazi soldier in occupied France has a legitimate right to engage in a battle against attacking British Commandos.

No one is going to say they don't have a right to engage in battle. You are delusional.

They are engaged in War. You can argue about whether there is a legitimate Causus Belli but you can't pretend they can't protect themselves when being attacked. You are fatally muddled.

You cant work out the difference between troops and a State, and I'm fatally muddled.

 

[HeliX]

The troops launching bombs are just defending themselves in legitimate combat against kids with stones.

[Chinahand]

HeliX, we've debated this multiple times.

I pretty firmly believe the evidence shows that the civilian to combatant death toll is lower than in Syria, Checnya, Berlin, the Korean war. It's absolutely terrible. That is the reality of urban warfare.

An embedded enemy who has built military infrastructure into the civilian structure of a city is hellish to up root. Ask General Zhukov.

I'm not disagreeing what Zhukov did to Berlin is terrible, with huge civilian suffering. But that is the reality of war. And those who start wars suffer the consequences.   

 

[Chinahand]

HeliX, Israel has a right to defend itself from Hezbollah's and Hamas' attacks.

You are delusional to pretend it doesn't.

The idea that October 7 isn't a legitimate Causus Belli is silly.

[HeliX]

Just now, Chinahand said:

HeliX, we've debated this multiple times.

I pretty firmly believe the evidence shows that the civilian to combatant death toll is lower than in Syria, Checnya, Berlin, the Korean war. It's absolutely terrible. That is the reality of urban warfare.

An embedded enemy who has built military infrastructure into the civilian structure of a city is hellish to up root. Ask General Zhukov.

I'm not disagreeing what Zhukov did to Berlin is terrible, with huge civilian suffering. But that is the reality of war. And those who start wars suffer the consequences.   

 

The civilian deaths are worse than unnecessary, they're counter productive. You cannot bomb terrorists out of existence, only into existence. You can't be suggesting Hamas started a war on Oct 7th, surely? Israel has been "mowing the lawn", aka murdering swathes of Palestinian civilians, for decades. It isn't a war. It's an occupation.

[HeliX]

Just now, Chinahand said:

HeliX, Israel has a right to defend itself from Hezbollah's and Hamas' attacks.

You are delusional to pretend it doesn't.

The idea that October 7 isn't a legitimate Causus Belli is silly.

Best take it up with international law and the ICJ because I'm not offering an opinion here, I'm stating the facts of whether Israel can act in "self defence" by bombing the shit out of Gaza legally or not.

Does Lebanon have a right to defend itself?

[HeliX]

"Defence"

[Chinahand]

Yes, HeliX everyone is aware that the Palestinians have been on the losing side when it comes to violence.

The absolutely dreadful political leadership the Palestinians have endured has failed again and again and again and again to protect its citizens. Why ... because it wants martyrs and has created a religious death cult around violence and martyrdom.

It is absolutely tragic.

The Palestinians who remained in Israel have escaped this disaster and are far far better off than those ruled by the death cult of Hamas or the corruption of Fatah.

Disastrous ideologies that have brought nothing but misery to their people.

[HeliX]

1 minute ago, Chinahand said:

Yes, HeliX everyone is aware that the Palestinians have been on the losing side when it comes to violence.

The absolutely dreadful political leadership the Palestinians have endured has failed again and again and again and again to protect its citizens. Why ... because it wants martyrs and has created a religious death cult around violence and martyrdom.

It is absolutely tragic.

The Palestinians who remained in Israel have escaped this disaster and are far far better off than those ruled by the death cult of Hamas or the corruption of Fatah.

Disastrous ideologies that have brought nothing but misery to their people.

Gaza and the West Bank have been intentionally kept in conditions that can only lead to failure and violence, by Israel. This is not only obvious, but admitted to in official Israeli policy. They deliberately keep Gaza in a state of economic disaster. They deliberately keep Gaza in a state of inadequate food, water and electricity supply. The Netanyahu government intentionally supported Hamas to weaken any attempts at a Palestinian state on the world stage. A violent outcome was not only inevitable, but a calculated plan.

The only hope for the region is an immediate ceasefire based on Hamas releasing all hostages, Israel releasing all those held on administrative detention, and a global political and humanitarian effort to rebuild Gaza and reach a political solution. Violence, if the last 60 years didn't make it clear enough, does not fucking work. And does not make ANY COUNTRY in the region safer.

[Chinahand]

Pretty incredible comments from Saudi Crown prince Mohammed Bin Salman:

https://www.israelnationalnews.com/news/396903?utm_source=facebook&utm_medium=social&utm_campaign=share&fbclid=IwY2xjawFmFNNleHRuA2FlbQIxMQABHfeLOpmhSE2jihpmMMu_-k1W6VxuU-Dw2wZDR2ILef7o6L7PgvJHnIMy7w_aem_H3Qvz-VXFMZfPaUBq_uPBw

Saudi Arabian Crown Prince Mohammed bin Salman says he would be willing for Israel to conduct counterterror operations in Gaza following war. 'I don't personally care about the Palestinian issue, but my people do.'

I still wonder if there is still a possibility of the conflict giving diplomacy a spur. With the defeat of the Islamofascists a more compromising settlement could result in the possibility of building and reconciling rather than terrorism and martyrdom. 

[HeliX]

1 minute ago, Chinahand said:

Pretty incredible comments from Saudi Crown prince Mohammed Bin Salman:

https://www.israelnationalnews.com/news/396903?utm_source=facebook&utm_medium=social&utm_campaign=share&fbclid=IwY2xjawFmFNNleHRuA2FlbQIxMQABHfeLOpmhSE2jihpmMMu_-k1W6VxuU-Dw2wZDR2ILef7o6L7PgvJHnIMy7w_aem_H3Qvz-VXFMZfPaUBq_uPBw

Saudi Arabian Crown Prince Mohammed bin Salman says he would be willing for Israel to conduct counterterror operations in Gaza following war. 'I don't personally care about the Palestinian issue, but my people do.'

I still wonder if there is still a possibility of the conflict giving diplomacy a spur. With the defeat of the Islamofascists a more compromising settlement could result in the possibility of building and reconciling rather than terrorism and martyrdom. 

Assuming you're referring to Hamas, you still cannot defeat an entity like that militarily. Hamas exists because of the occupation. Get rid of the occupation, give the people of Gaza a plausible future instead of condemning them to exist under the boot of Israel, and martyrdom will stop looking like a compelling option.