Chinahand Posted September 30 Share Posted September 30 34 minutes ago, HeliX said: You cant work out the difference between troops and a State, and I'm fatally muddled. HeiX, this is a court case about whether building Israel's "Peace Walls" was a legitimate self defence response. I think you know this. To connect it with the reaction to the terrorist attacks of October 7 and the coordinated responses of Hezbollah concomitant with that is naïve. http://www.ejil.org/pdfs/16/5/332.pdf Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HeliX Posted September 30 Share Posted September 30 Just now, Chinahand said: HeiX, this is a court case about whether building Israel's "Peace Walls" was a legitimate self defence response. I think you know this. To connect it with the reaction to the terrorist attacks of October 7 and the coordinated responses of Hezbollah concomitant with that is naïve. http://www.ejil.org/pdfs/16/5/332.pdf Are you suggesting Hamas is now a state entity? Resolution 51 clearly refers to armed attack by one State against another State. "The right to self-defence can be invoked when the state is threatened by another state, which is not the case" - Francesca Albanese, UN Special rapporteur on human rights in the occupied Palestinian territories. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chinahand Posted September 30 Share Posted September 30 2 minutes ago, HeliX said: Assuming you're referring to Hamas, you still cannot defeat an entity like that militarily. Hamas exists because of the occupation. Get rid of the occupation, give the people of Gaza a plausible future instead of condemning them to exist under the boot of Israel, and martyrdom will stop looking like a compelling option. Action and reaction in a spiral. The defeat of Hamas hopefully will give an opportunity for an environment where Gaza is ruled by a group not attempting to use civilian infrastructure to embed a terrorist entity dedicated to violent terrorism within the rebuilt city. This will hopefully allow Israel to treat Gaza more like Haifa. There is a reason why the Arab communities in Haifa, or Umm al-Fahm have better lives than Gaza. It isn't all Israel's fault. Hamas' dreadful ideology has consequences too. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chinahand Posted September 30 Share Posted September 30 6 minutes ago, HeliX said: Are you suggesting Hamas is now a state entity? Resolution 51 clearly refers to armed attack by one State against another State. "The right to self-defence can be invoked when the state is threatened by another state, which is not the case" - Francesca Albanese, UN Special rapporteur on human rights in the occupied Palestinian territories. Helix, a state is allowed to take action against the terrorist actions of a non-state actor. You are the one posting screen grabs which are totally disingenuous to the issue at hand. The legitimate military response to Hamas' and Hezbollah's actions. War is tragic. I wish war was not being fought, but to pretend what Hamas did wouldn't lead to war, and war is a legitimate response to what they did is to be blind. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HeliX Posted September 30 Share Posted September 30 7 minutes ago, Chinahand said: Action and reaction in a spiral. The defeat of Hamas hopefully will give an opportunity for an environment where Gaza is ruled by a group not attempting to use civilian infrastructure to embed a terrorist entity dedicated to violent terrorism within the rebuilt city. This will hopefully allow Israel to treat Gaza more like Haifa. There is a reason why the Arab communities in Haifa, or Umm al-Fahm have better lives than Gaza. It isn't all Israel's fault. Hamas' dreadful ideology has consequences too. What defeat of Hamas? Is there anything at all in history that gives you confidence that military action can defeat a group like Hamas? The only solution is a political one. Violence will just create more violence. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HeliX Posted September 30 Share Posted September 30 3 minutes ago, Chinahand said: Helix, a state is allowed to take action against the terrorist actions of a non-state actor. You are the one posting screen grabs which are totally disingenuous to the issue at hand. The legitimate military response to Hamas' and Hezbollah's actions. War is tragic. I wish war was not being fought, but to pretend what Hamas did wouldn't lead to war, and war is a legitimate response to what they did is to be blind. I cannot understand the mindset that Oct 7th was the start of anything. https://reliefweb.int/report/occupied-palestinian-territory/2023-marks-deadliest-year-record-children-occupied-west-bank "2023 marks deadliest year on record for children in the occupied West Bank" - Originally published 18 Sep 2023 I find it totally insane that so many people seem to hold the following two beliefs simultaneously: - That nothing justifies Oct 7th (which is true, nothing does) - That Oct 7th justifies everything (which is clearly nuts) 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chinahand Posted September 30 Share Posted September 30 4 minutes ago, HeliX said: What defeat of Hamas? Is there anything at all in history that gives you confidence that military action can defeat a group like Hamas? The only solution is a political one. Violence will just create more violence. Hamas have been defeated, just like the Nazis were. I fully agree the only solution is a political one, but guess what, Hamas wasn't looking for one on October 7, and neither has Hezbollah. They sought to use violence. With their defeat and removal there's some possibility that a political solution will emerge. MbS's comments are frankly incredible and might open the way for a gulf initiative to rebuild Gaza without the rule of a death cult. If that is the case, there may be some hope of a turn away from violence. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chinahand Posted September 30 Share Posted September 30 3 minutes ago, HeliX said: I cannot understand the mindset that Oct 7th was the start of anything. https://reliefweb.int/report/occupied-palestinian-territory/2023-marks-deadliest-year-record-children-occupied-west-bank "2023 marks deadliest year on record for children in the occupied West Bank" - Originally published 18 Sep 2023 I find it totally insane that so many people seem to hold the following two beliefs simultaneously: - That nothing justifies Oct 7th (which is true, nothing does) - That Oct 7th justifies everything (which is clearly nuts) God, you are so over-wrought. Can't you understand that the Palestinian policy of violence has been a total failure. Over generations. The PLO hijaking and machine gunning brought Palestinians nothing. Their attempts to over-throw firstly the government of Jordan (Black September anyone) and then Lebanon were disastrous. Their defeat and evacuation to Tunis created the first space for a political settlement which lead to Oslo. Israel has had governments that have moved towards a settlement and right-wing ones that have not. Hamas' bus bombing campaigns effectively weakened the Israeli peace movement as the opening up that Oslo gave was rewarded with mass terrorism. Hamas' actions empower the Jewish right wing. That stupidity has weakened and weakened the Palestinian people and lost them so much. Good riddance to them. I am glad the Nazis were defeated. It is terrible it took so much destruction to achieve it, but the breaking of that pernicious ideology allowed a new politics to emerge. Exactly the same point applies to Hamas and Hezbollah. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HeliX Posted September 30 Share Posted September 30 19 minutes ago, Chinahand said: Hamas have been defeated, just like the Nazis were. I fully agree the only solution is a political one, but guess what, Hamas wasn't looking for one on October 7, and neither has Hezbollah. They sought to use violence. With their defeat and removal there's some possibility that a political solution will emerge. MbS's comments are frankly incredible and might open the way for a gulf initiative to rebuild Gaza without the rule of a death cult. If that is the case, there may be some hope of a turn away from violence. Hamas have not been defeated. Plenty of orphans and parents with dead kids have been created though. Wonder what their priorities will be given no meaningful purpose in life. The Palestinians have looked for political solutions countless times over the last 60+ years. They have been denied at every turn. As mentioned multiple times in this thread, if you remove the chance of political change, remove the chance of peaceful protest, you guarantee violence. Hamas didn't even exist prior to Israel's brutal occupation of Gaza. Hezbollah didn't exist prior to Israel's brutal occupation of Lebanon. Maybe we should be working to undo the occupation. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HeliX Posted September 30 Share Posted September 30 (edited) 13 minutes ago, Chinahand said: God, you are so over-wrought. Can't you understand that the Palestinian policy of violence has been a total failure. Over generations. The PLO hijaking and machine gunning brought Palestinians nothing. Their attempts to over-throw firstly the government of Jordan (Black September anyone) and then Lebanon were disastrous. Their defeat and evacuation to Tunis created the first space for a political settlement which lead to Oslo. Israel has had governments that have moved towards a settlement and right-wing ones that have not. Hamas' bus bombing campaigns effectively weakened the Israeli peace movement as the opening up that Oslo gave was rewarded with mass terrorism. Hamas' actions empower the Jewish right wing. That stupidity has weakened and weakened the Palestinian people and lost them so much. Good riddance to them. I am glad the Nazis were defeated. It is terrible it took so much destruction to achieve it, but the breaking of that pernicious ideology allowed a new politics to emerge. Exactly the same point applies to Hamas and Hezbollah. Violence hasn't been a Palestinian "policy". Palestinians have sought peace and negotiation for decades. They are denied at every turn. Hamas will not be defeated by military means. The Nazis were not defeated by military means - Hitler and his Government & armies were. Nazis still very much exist, and are still very much a violent force in the world. They are also not comparable to the likes of Hamas and Hezbollah. A closer analogy would be the IRA. Edited September 30 by HeliX Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
P.K. Posted September 30 Share Posted September 30 (edited) 1 hour ago, HeliX said: Violence hasn't been a Palestinian "policy". Palestinians have sought peace and negotiation for decades. They are denied at every turn. Hamas will not be defeated by military means. The Nazis were not defeated by military means - Hitler and his Government & armies were. Nazis still very much exist, and are still very much a violent force in the world. They are also not comparable to the likes of Hamas and Hezbollah. A closer analogy would be the IRA. The old "You can't kill an idea" etc etc. But you can kill a bunch of amoral murderous thugs... Edited September 30 by P.K. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HeliX Posted September 30 Share Posted September 30 (edited) 5 minutes ago, P.K. said: The old "You can't kill an idea" etc etc. But you can kill a bunch of amoral murderous thugs... Killing civilians will create more Hamas. It is ahistorical to believe that this can be resolved with violence. Edited September 30 by HeliX Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
P.K. Posted September 30 Share Posted September 30 10 minutes ago, HeliX said: Killing civilians will create more Hamas. It is ahistorical to believe that this can be resolved with violence. Killing Hamas terrorists, which is what I meant as you well know, might give an opportunity for a moderate organisation to rise. Face it, Hamas and their rockets and assault on Israel brought nothing but death and destruction to Gaza... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HeliX Posted September 30 Share Posted September 30 1 minute ago, P.K. said: Killing Hamas terrorists, which is what I meant as you well know, might give an opportunity for a moderate organisation to rise. Face it, Hamas and their rockets and assault on Israel brought nothing but death and destruction to Gaza... But you claim that killing civilians is an unavoidable part of combat. And doing that is going to create more Hamas. Violence will not solve this. Israel has brought nothing but death and destruction to Gaza since its inception. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
P.K. Posted September 30 Share Posted September 30 10 minutes ago, HeliX said: But you claim that killing civilians is an unavoidable part of combat. And doing that is going to create more Hamas. Violence will not solve this. Israel has brought nothing but death and destruction to Gaza since its inception. Don't poke the bear. You have heard of this...? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.