Chinahand Posted September 30 Share Posted September 30 20 minutes ago, HeliX said: It is ahistorical to believe that this can be resolved with violence. So you disagree with the armed struggle then? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HeliX Posted September 30 Share Posted September 30 9 minutes ago, Chinahand said: So you disagree with the armed struggle then? I disagree with violence in general, yes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chinahand Posted September 30 Share Posted September 30 At least we can agree on something. Good. Violence has been a disaster for both communities. And I do agree the Palestinians have suffered far more than the Israelis from violence. And lost far more because of it. To see the Israeli right driving a settler political rhetoric enabled by the actions of Hamas, Hezbollah etc is very sad. This is I think our major difference ... I think there is and was a legitimate Israeli peace party and incredibly that grouping included Sharon. I don't believe he left Likud and ordered the withdraw from Gaza to draw the Palestinians into a trap. He tried to create a united front to see if peace could be built. The reaction of the Palestinians to that and most especially Hamas' bus bombing campaigns and then rocket attacks has fatally weakened the Israeli peace party who were totally disempowered by not having a partner for peace on the Palestinian side. I don't know what'll happen now. I hope this new Nakba will leave a war weary people on both sides, with Bibi rejected at the polls and so an opportunity for a new beginning. I have to say I'm amazed by MBS's recent statements. Could a Gulf sponsored regime, rebuilding Gaza and more trusted by Israel create the conditions for peace? I just don't know. What is the policy for the peace? After Victory? That is what the Israeli election will be fought on. I hope pragmatists win. But the right has seized its moment and may do better than was expected a year ago. As you say, HeliX, it is only via politics this will end ... but what politics for reconciliation are coming from the Palestinian side that Benny Gantz or Yair Lapid could join with, and which a very untrusting Israeli electorate could accept. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HeliX Posted September 30 Share Posted September 30 (edited) 1 hour ago, Chinahand said: At least we can agree on something. Good. Violence has been a disaster for both communities. And I do agree the Palestinians have suffered far more than the Israelis from violence. And lost far more because of it. To see the Israeli right driving a settler political rhetoric enabled by the actions of Hamas, Hezbollah etc is very sad. This is I think our major difference ... I think there is and was a legitimate Israeli peace party and incredibly that grouping included Sharon. I don't believe he left Likud and ordered the withdraw from Gaza to draw the Palestinians into a trap. He tried to create a united front to see if peace could be built. The reaction of the Palestinians to that and most especially Hamas' bus bombing campaigns and then rocket attacks has fatally weakened the Israeli peace party who were totally disempowered by not having a partner for peace on the Palestinian side. I don't know what'll happen now. I hope this new Nakba will leave a war weary people on both sides, with Bibi rejected at the polls and so an opportunity for a new beginning. I have to say I'm amazed by MBS's recent statements. Could a Gulf sponsored regime, rebuilding Gaza and more trusted by Israel create the conditions for peace? I just don't know. What is the policy for the peace? After Victory? That is what the Israeli election will be fought on. I hope pragmatists win. But the right has seized its moment and may do better than was expected a year ago. As you say, HeliX, it is only via politics this will end ... but what politics for reconciliation are coming from the Palestinian side that Benny Gantz or Yair Lapid could join with, and which a very untrusting Israeli electorate could accept. I'm not sure I'd see Sharon as a voice for peace, I think he's a large part of the reason Hamas became popular. Having al-Rantisi and Sheikh Ahmed Yassin assassinated before Hamas was in power in Gaza was probably a driving force for their election win in 2006. He was also responsible for the killing of a large number of unarmed Palestinians in 2005, and he put in place policies of curfews and long periods of closure to starve those in Gaza. When they occasionally rebelled, he gave the government licence to react with greater force than before. He negotiated with the Americans a withdrawal of Israeli troops from Gaza in exchange for Israel gaining most of the West Bank. In 2000 Sharon toured Haram al-Sharif with a massive security presence. The initial Palestinian anger about this was expressed in non-violent demonstrations, which were met with force by Israel. Yeidot Ahronoth's deputy editor wrote a book about the misinformation campaign that followed this by Israel, where the media reports initially read that the Second Intifada was peaceful, but was rewritten to make it seem like there was not a "partner for peace". The Suppression of Guilt: The Israeli Media and the Reoccupation of the West Bank by Daniel Dor. It was after the initial brutal response by Israel that the bus bombings took place - once again showing that if you remove people's peaceful right to protest you get violence. As to the question of what politics of reconciliation are coming from Palestine, I think it's both naive and unfair to expect an occupied (and besieged) populace to be the ones to offer the reconciliation. Peace depends upon an end to the occupation, because only then are there equal partners able to negotiate for it. Edited September 30 by HeliX Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RecklessAbandon Posted October 1 Share Posted October 1 On 9/29/2024 at 4:17 PM, P.K. said: Apples and oranges. Putin invaded to gain territory. Oh, how quant. You still think Israel is going to completely withdraw from all occupied lands. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheTeapot Posted October 1 Share Posted October 1 Missiles in the air apparently. Just what everyone wanted. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheTeapot Posted October 1 Share Posted October 1 I see the Iron Dome is now Davids Sling! Anyway, makes for good TV. Quite a few got through, but most got taken out mid air. Wonder if they'll kill the Ayatollah. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HeliX Posted October 1 Share Posted October 1 6 minutes ago, TheTeapot said: I see the Iron Dome is now Davids Sling! Anyway, makes for good TV. Quite a few got through, but most got taken out mid air. Wonder if they'll kill the Ayatollah. The Iron Dome is primarily for Hamas' slow non-guided rockets. Davids Sling is for faster more sophisticated missiles. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sheldon Posted October 1 Share Posted October 1 Whatever it is, something's getting through... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HeliX Posted October 1 Share Posted October 1 Could've all been avoided but Netanyahu is a warmongering pig and nobody in the west had the principles to stop him. Here comes more fucking pointless bloodshed. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheTeapot Posted October 1 Share Posted October 1 It's so stupid, Israel sort of treated the last lot as a minor annoyance, they won't carry on like that. This is exactly what they want. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
P.K. Posted October 1 Share Posted October 1 1 hour ago, HeliX said: Could've all been avoided but Netanyahu is a warmongering pig and nobody in the west had the principles to stop him. Here comes more fucking pointless bloodshed. What a load of nonsense. Rockets have been fired at Israel from Lebanon. Almost certainly by Hezbollah. Israel has the right to defend itself including entering Lebanon to stick it to Hezbollah. As per you try to put the blame on Israel for the missiles that have hit their country from Lebanon and Iran. You clearly have no idea how stupid that sounds. By all means now drip and moan about "occupation" as though that explains everything... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HeliX Posted October 1 Share Posted October 1 18 minutes ago, P.K. said: What a load of nonsense. Rockets have been fired at Israel from Lebanon. Almost certainly by Hezbollah. Israel has the right to defend itself including entering Lebanon to stick it to Hezbollah. As per you try to put the blame on Israel for the missiles that have hit their country from Lebanon and Iran. You clearly have no idea how stupid that sounds. By all means now drip and moan about "occupation" as though that explains everything... Lebanon has the right to defend itself. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ham_N_Eggs Posted October 1 Share Posted October 1 32 minutes ago, P.K. said: What a load of nonsense. Rockets have been fired at Israel from Lebanon. Almost certainly by Hezbollah. Israel has the right to defend itself including entering Lebanon to stick it to Hezbollah. As per you try to put the blame on Israel for the missiles that have hit their country from Lebanon and Iran. You clearly have no idea how stupid that sounds. By all means now drip and moan about "occupation" as though that explains everything... Does it have the right to invade a sovereign nation? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Non-Believer Posted October 1 Share Posted October 1 36 minutes ago, P.K. said: What a load of nonsense. Rockets have been fired at Israel from Lebanon. Almost certainly by Hezbollah. Israel has the right to defend itself including entering Lebanon to stick it to Hezbollah. As per you try to put the blame on Israel for the missiles that have hit their country from Lebanon and Iran. You clearly have no idea how stupid that sounds. By all means now drip and moan about "occupation" as though that explains everything... Iranian launching of missiles has also infringed Iraqi, Syrian and Jordanian airspace, Jordan going to the extent of closing theirs to commercial flights for a period on safety grounds. Hardly responsible actions. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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