cheesypeas Posted October 5 Share Posted October 5 The first thing to disappear in war is the truth. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chinahand Posted October 5 Share Posted October 5 The details of who were killed on October 7th have been fully documented and published. https://www.france24.com/en/live-news/20231215-israel-social-security-data-reveals-true-picture-of-oct-7-deaths Its website lists 695 people killed during the attack, with names and the circumstances of their deaths. Among them are 36 children, including 20 under 15 years old and 10 killed by rockets. The youngest victim was 10-month-old Mila Cohen, shot and killed at Kibbutz Beeri. An entire family, including three children aged between two and six, were killed in their home at Kibbutz Nir Oz. Elsewhere, two brothers aged five and eight were shot dead in their car with their parents. A five-year-old boy was killed in the street by a rocket. The data gives a clear picture of the scale of the atrocities at the Supernova music festival in Reim where 364 people were killed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HeliX Posted October 5 Share Posted October 5 13 minutes ago, Chinahand said: The details of who were killed on October 7th have been fully documented and published. https://www.france24.com/en/live-news/20231215-israel-social-security-data-reveals-true-picture-of-oct-7-deaths Its website lists 695 people killed during the attack, with names and the circumstances of their deaths. Among them are 36 children, including 20 under 15 years old and 10 killed by rockets. The youngest victim was 10-month-old Mila Cohen, shot and killed at Kibbutz Beeri. An entire family, including three children aged between two and six, were killed in their home at Kibbutz Nir Oz. Elsewhere, two brothers aged five and eight were shot dead in their car with their parents. A five-year-old boy was killed in the street by a rocket. The data gives a clear picture of the scale of the atrocities at the Supernova music festival in Reim where 364 people were killed. So not 40 beheaded babies then? Which was a deliberate lie to justify the IDFs brutality. You're right, 364 dead is an atrocity. It's a shame the global response to 40,000 dead is a shrug of the shoulders. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cheesypeas Posted October 5 Share Posted October 5 (edited) At this point some of you really need to agree to disagree and draw a line. Killing of innocent people by either side is abhorrent, and more important is how it stops. Edited October 5 by cheesypeas added a bit Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HeliX Posted October 5 Share Posted October 5 6 minutes ago, cheesypeas said: At this point some of you really need to agree to disagree and draw a line. Killing of innocent people by either side is abhorrent, and more important is how it stops. The difficulty is that it won't stop until enough of the world can agree that Israel should stop violating international law and end its occupation of multiple lands to pressure them into actually doing so. Agreeing to disagree can't resolve this. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cheesypeas Posted October 5 Share Posted October 5 1 minute ago, HeliX said: The difficulty is that it won't stop until enough of the world can agree that Israel should stop violating international law and end its occupation of multiple lands to pressure them into actually doing so. Agreeing to disagree can't resolve this. 150 pages of HeliX V PK wont resolve it either tbf. You've both made your positions clear. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
buncha wankas Posted October 5 Share Posted October 5 11 hours ago, Chinahand said: ... Particularly when attacked by murderous enslaving Islamists who enforce their totalitarian ideology with oppression and violence. And before HeliX tells me the paragraph above perfectly describes Israel. No it doesn't. Israel lives in peace with it's neighbours which live in peace with it. Israel is a democratic pluralist society ... It is many many problems but it is nothing like Hamas or Hezbollah. Israel isn’t democratic, it illegally occupies millions in Westbank, utilising oppression and terrorism daily for 76 years and there are 2 million Israeli who do not get equal rights or rights to vote in Israel 🇮🇱. That’s aside from the 2.4 million it oppressed and terrorised in Gaza. I do wish people would educate themselves before quoting the corrupted narrative fed to fools for years. 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chinahand Posted October 5 Share Posted October 5 Cheesy, I don't think anyone here is anything other than hugely saddened by the deaths, and wishes that war wasn't occurring, as you say the important thing is how it stops. I cannot see it stopping while Hamas and Hezbollah spread their ideologies spread, paid for and evangelised by Iran. Israel has a right to exist. It has a right to set its citizenship rules. While Iran, Hamas and Hezbollah use violence to deny that there will be war. I fully agree Palestine also has a right to exist, but as long as its political leadership continues to lead Palestinians into disaster after disaster they will be in an ever weakened position and further from achieving it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Albert Tatlock Posted October 5 Share Posted October 5 I'm so glad I don't have any of these invisible friends. They're not very nice are they. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chinahand Posted October 5 Share Posted October 5 The status of the Occupied Territories will remain contested until Israel is unable to claim it has to control them to stop violence against its people. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HeliX Posted October 5 Share Posted October 5 1 minute ago, Chinahand said: The status of the Occupied Territories will remain contested until Israel is unable to claim it has to control them to stop violence against its people. Israel's own actions guarantee violent uprisings. Handy if you, for example, wish to continue to occupy them. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HeliX Posted October 5 Share Posted October 5 Ilan Pappe, rather more eloquently than me, writes: "Another way of judging what the real Israeli intentions have been since 1967 is to look at these policies from the point of view of the Palestinian victims. After the occupation, the new ruler confined the Palestinians of the West Bank and Gaza Strip in an impossible limbo: they were neither refugees nor citizens—they were, and still are, citizenless inhabitants. They were inmates, and in many respects still are, of a huge prison in which they have no civil and human rights and no impact on their future. The world tolerates this situation because Israel claims—and the claim was never challenged until recently—that the situation is temporary and will continue only until there is a proper Palestinian partner for peace. Not surprisingly, such a partner has not been found. At the time of writing, Israel is still incarcerating a third generation of Palestinians by various means and methods, and depicting these mega-prisons as temporary realities that will change once peace comes to Israel and Palestine. What can the Palestinians do? The Israeli message is very clear: If they comply with the expropriations of land, the severe restrictions on movement, the harsh bureaucracy of occupation, then they may reap a few benefits. These may be the right to work in Israel, to claim some autonomy, and, since 1993, even the right to call some of these autonomous regions a state. However, if they choose the path of resistance, as they have done occasionally, they will feel the full might of the Israeli army. The Palestinian activist Mazin Qumsiyeh has counted fourteen such uprisings that have attempted to escape this mega-prison—all were met with a brutal, and in the case of Gaza, even genocidal, response.27 Thus we can see that the takeover of the West Bank and the Gaza Strip represents a completion of the job that began in 1948. Back then, the Zionist movement took over 80 percent of the Palestine—in 1967 they completed the takeover. The demographic fear that haunted Ben-Gurion—a greater Israel with no Jewish majority—was cynically resolved by incarcerating the population of the occupied territories in a non-citizenship prison. This is not just a historical description; in many ways it is still the reality in 2017." Pappe, Ilan. Ten Myths About Israel (pp. 93-94). 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cheesypeas Posted October 5 Share Posted October 5 1 hour ago, Chinahand said: Cheesy, I don't think anyone here is anything other than hugely saddened by the deaths, and wishes that war wasn't occurring, as you say the important thing is how it stops. I cannot see it stopping while Hamas and Hezbollah spread their ideologies spread, paid for and evangelised by Iran. Israel has a right to exist. It has a right to set its citizenship rules. While Iran, Hamas and Hezbollah use violence to deny that there will be war. I fully agree Palestine also has a right to exist, but as long as its political leadership continues to lead Palestinians into disaster after disaster they will be in an ever weakened position and further from achieving it. I don’t know anything about the history between Israel and Palestine. Sometimes you’ve got to be the bigger person though. Perhaps if Israel pulled out of the West Bank things would calm down, perhaps they wouldn’t. Violence breeds violence, so the current plan appears to only result in further escalation, which doesn’t help anyone. I really hate religion. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vaaish Posted October 5 Share Posted October 5 43 minutes ago, cheesypeas said: I really hate religion. And there you have it. This is simply the Old Testament with computer guided weaponry. It’ll never stop. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HeteroErectus Posted October 5 Share Posted October 5 4 hours ago, HeliX said: So not 40 beheaded babies then? Which was a deliberate lie to justify the IDFs brutality. You're right, 364 dead is an atrocity. It's a shame the global response to 40,000 dead is a shrug of the shoulders. Again, that is if a terrorist group and a fully-fledged, long-time member of the UN should be compared like for like. Barbarians fighting barbarians with money. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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