HeliX Posted October 6 Share Posted October 6 And if anyone needs cheering up after having to listen to "left wing" (certainly not by western standards) Einat Wilf, here's her lies getting thoroughly obliterated by Medhi Hasan and Ilan Pappe Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ham_N_Eggs Posted October 6 Share Posted October 6 As harrowing as this is, it has to be watched: https://youtu.be/kPE6vbKix6A 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HeliX Posted October 6 Share Posted October 6 19 minutes ago, Chinahand said: The fact we had successive prime ministers elected on that platform [a Palestinian state in the West Bank and Gaza] Barak, even more than Rabin, Ohmet, who have actually proposed a Palestinian state, no settlements no occupation, capital in East Jerusalem including Holy sites only to see Arafat and Abu Masen walk away to no dissenting voices among their people. I was working with Shimon Peres when together with Arial Sharon in Government they carried out the disengagement in Gaza really to the last square inch. Barak demanded a demilitarized Palestinian state, with a capital in a village near Jerusalem, Abu Dis, and without parts of the West Bank such as the Jordan Valley, the big Jewish settlement blocs, and areas in Greater Jerusalem. The future state would not have an independent economic and foreign policy and would be autonomous only in certain domestic aspects (such as running the educational system, tax collection, municipalities, policing, and maintaining the infrastructures on the ground). The formalization of this arrangement was to signify the end of the conflict and terminate any Palestinian demands in the future (such as the right of return for the 1948 Palestinian refugees). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chinahand Posted October 6 Share Posted October 6 Olmert's Peace Offer. https://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/ehud-olmert-s-peace-offer HeliX, Do you really think every Israeli peace offer was just fake and should be just rejected out of hand. Do you really think this was the right policy for the Palestinians to pursue? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HeliX Posted October 6 Share Posted October 6 Just now, Chinahand said: Olmert's Peace Offer. https://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/ehud-olmert-s-peace-offer HeliX, Do you really think every Israeli peace offer was just fake and should be just rejected out of hand. What do you mean by fake? I think they were intentionally poor, but not fake. Quote Do you really think this was the right policy for the Palestinians to pursue? Perhaps they, not unreasonably, thought the international community wouldn't let Israel do what it's done the last few decades. If they could see the future and how brutal and appalling the Israeli occupation and siege of Gaza would be perhaps they'd have taken a shit deal. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
buncha wankas Posted October 6 Share Posted October 6 1 hour ago, Chinahand said: Olmert's Peace Offer. https://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/ehud-olmert-s-peace-offer HeliX, Do you really think every Israeli peace offer was just fake and should be just rejected out of hand. Do you really think this was the right policy for the Palestinians to pursue? The fact that you actually think those terms is a peace offer, shows you are brainwashed, read it carefully, aside from keeping the 48 lands, it states we will give you your own state but we will decide who can live in or return to the land or desert given. Given! It was Palestine before it was Israel 2.0 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
P.K. Posted October 7 Share Posted October 7 15 hours ago, Chinahand said: Christ, you two go and get a room. HeliX, believe it or not it is disputed who holds sovereignty over the Palestinian territories. P.K. your understanding seems to stop in about 1973. Yes, Egypt and Jordan both annexed the Palestinian territories, but since then they say they have given that sovereignty to the PLO which via the Oslo Accords have morphed into the Palestinian Authority which is widely recognised as the rightful holder of Palestinian sovereignty. But the PA is not able to exercise their sovereignty because it is held by Israel due to all the various wars and conflict in the area. The PLO was designated a terrorist organisation. Israel has ended up being the occupying power of both Gaza and the West Bank. Which is why the western border of Jordan was agreed with Israel. Now both these areas were overrun in the various wars. As far as I'm concerned "to the victor belong the spoils of war" still rings true. So I suppose Israel could annexe the West Bank in the same way Jordan did. The danger in the area is the rise of militant Islam as happened in Gaza. On gaining power in 2012 Hamas promptly did away with elections. Nice ploy. So the Israeli fear is that the same thing could happen in the West Bank with it's 3 million Palestinians and Iranian support. Israel would be constantly living in fear of them. Not that they aren't already. So I fully understand Israeli reluctance to cede the West Bank. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RecklessAbandon Posted October 7 Share Posted October 7 On 10/5/2024 at 6:07 PM, Chinahand said: So this is just a lie is it. Just an excuse for Israel for no reason whatsoever to attack Lebanon because that is what Jews do for giggles. Really? Because Israel has not been caught making blatant propaganda lies to further their objective of genocide? If you think Israel is squeaky clean, I've got a terrorist rota calendar to show you (except its not that, its just a bloody calendar) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RecklessAbandon Posted October 7 Share Posted October 7 On 10/5/2024 at 7:41 PM, Chinahand said: The details of who were killed on October 7th have been fully documented and published. https://www.france24.com/en/live-news/20231215-israel-social-security-data-reveals-true-picture-of-oct-7-deaths Its website lists 695 people killed during the attack, with names and the circumstances of their deaths. Among them are 36 children, including 20 under 15 years old and 10 killed by rockets. The youngest victim was 10-month-old Mila Cohen, shot and killed at Kibbutz Beeri. An entire family, including three children aged between two and six, were killed in their home at Kibbutz Nir Oz. Elsewhere, two brothers aged five and eight were shot dead in their car with their parents. A five-year-old boy was killed in the street by a rocket. The data gives a clear picture of the scale of the atrocities at the Supernova music festival in Reim where 364 people were killed. Are you going to make the same post listing all the civilian dead after Oct 7th? Or are you only upset when certain ethnic groups are murdered? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RecklessAbandon Posted October 7 Share Posted October 7 On 10/5/2024 at 8:34 PM, Chinahand said: I cannot see it stopping while Hamas and Hezbollah spread their ideologies spread, paid for and evangelised by Iran. At some point you have to realise, that while Hamas and Hezbollah are not innocent in all of this (by any definition), Israel have gone from victims to the aggressor. At some point you cannot in good conscious think that 40,000 (and growing by the day) civilian casualties is some how a justifiable reaction to 645 dead civilians. The longer the likes of apologists like you and PK intentionally keep banging this drum, the longer this kind of international tragedy and flagrant disregard for international law, the longer this blatantly obvious land grab and last grasp for power by Bibi will continue. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RecklessAbandon Posted October 7 Share Posted October 7 19 hours ago, Shake me up Judy said: Pappe is a well known Marxist with the usual Marxist theoretical baggage. You repeatedly quote him as the key source for your understanding of the conflict. It's student politics Helix and you need to grow up. Oh good, we're hit Marxists Law - at some point, the likelyhood of a discussion forum incorrectly having the term Marxist used reaches 1. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RecklessAbandon Posted October 7 Share Posted October 7 16 hours ago, Chinahand said: Of course there is a dispute. Multiple Israeli, American and other scholars disagree with you. You are just unwilling to accept what they say. Hmmmm Americans supporting the illegal occupation by Israel? Who would of thought? *cough* nothing to do with the billions of arms sales and religious funding from America *cough* Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HeliX Posted October 7 Share Posted October 7 (edited) 20 hours ago, Shake me up Judy said: Pappe is a well known Marxist with the usual Marxist theoretical baggage. You repeatedly quote him as the key source for your understanding of the conflict. It's student politics Helix and you need to grow up. I'm happy to quote plenty of others if you'd prefer. I just find Pappé's phrasing the most relatable. You should probably find out what Marxism is. Edited October 7 by HeliX 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
P.K. Posted October 7 Share Posted October 7 Today is the anniversary of the Hamas assault on Israel. I wonder if the Palestinians in Gaza will be celebrating in the streets like they did this time last year...? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HeliX Posted October 7 Share Posted October 7 47 minutes ago, P.K. said: Today is the anniversary of the Hamas assault on Israel. I wonder if the Palestinians in Gaza will be celebrating in the streets like they did this time last year...? Maybe we'd find out if the IDF would stop murdering journalists. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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