RecklessAbandon Posted October 7 Share Posted October 7 @P.K. @Chinahand Does Israel still have a blanket ban on international news agencies in Gaza? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HeliX Posted October 7 Share Posted October 7 The last time UN Peacekeepers withdrew, the IDF comitted a massacre. The Irish peacekeepers are currently refusing to leave. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HeliX Posted October 7 Share Posted October 7 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chinahand Posted October 7 Share Posted October 7 9 hours ago, RecklessAbandon said: Are you going to make the same post listing all the civilian dead after Oct 7th? Or are you only upset when certain ethnic groups are murdered? For fuck sack, I've repeated said this is a terrible war, it is a vast human tragedy and I wish it had never started. I support a 2 state solution, and condemn Israeli settlors and settlements. I feel terribly sad for the deaths of all sides. However, I am basically certain that nothing like it would have happened if Hamas hadn't launched its attack on October 7 2023 and I am not surprised at all that a building by building war has resulted as a result of Hamas actions and ongoing behaviour. In my view, it is little different that what the Red Army had to do to take Berlin, Putin did in Grozny, Assad had done in Allepo. It is what happens when an entrenched and determined force resists an army determined to defeat them. War is terrible and those who start them reap what they sow, whether they are Putin, Hamas or Hitler. The abysmal leadership of the Palestinian people by murderous zealots has brought disaster after disaster upon them. I pity them terribly. No society is going to take an attack on the scale of October 7th as anything other than a declaration of war. Hamas for reasons I cannot comprehend wanted, with Iran's support, to stop a deepening peace process between the gulf states and Israel. They wanted to start a war and they got one. Quelle surprise. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HeliX Posted October 7 Share Posted October 7 (edited) 17 minutes ago, Chinahand said: However, I am basically certain that nothing like it would have happened if Hamas hadn't launched its attack on October 7 2023 and I am not surprised at all that a building by building war has resulted as a result of Hamas actions and ongoing behaviour. No society is going to take an attack on the scale of October 7th as anything other than a declaration of war. Hamas for reasons I cannot comprehend wanted, with Iran's support, to stop a deepening peace process between the gulf states and Israel. They wanted to start a war and they got one. Quelle surprise. But you don't apply this logic to Israel's brutal oppression in Gaza. Edited October 7 by HeliX 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chinahand Posted October 7 Share Posted October 7 10 hours ago, RecklessAbandon said: The longer the likes of apologists like you and PK intentionally keep banging this drum, the longer this kind of international tragedy and flagrant disregard for international law, the longer this blatantly obvious land grab and last grasp for power by Bibi will continue. Oh my ... Sorry, but I am just an irrelevance on the internet. My opinions have no impact on this conflict. And neither do yours. This conflict is real politique writ large. Don't you get the point I've made repeatedly. Hamas has strengthened those who oppose Palestinian statehood. Hamas has weakened those who call for compromise on the Israeli side. I support a Palestinian state and hear me clearly because of what Hamas did, it is less likely. If you support the Palestinians gaining sovereignty you should clearly and loudly condemn Hamas and wish for it to be replaced by a politics not so dominated by zealotry, rejectionism and violence. Hamas' continual terrorism has continually made the achievement of Palestinian sovereignty less likely. International law is sadly a weak and compromised construct. International law will play almost no part in resolving the issues, apart from when a final settlement is lodged at the UN and the old enemies, their hatred hidden behind smiles, line up for their Peace Prizes and acclaim. Pure power and the smoke filled rooms of the big beasts who's thought processes we can scarcely discern - Bibi's, MBS's, possibly Trump's - will decide what happens next. I've repeatedly said the only hope I see this conflict bringing is with a comprehensive defeat of the rejectionists, maybe some compromise will be possible. I hope Bibi is repudiated in the next Israeli elections, the peace party makes some gains and this time their offers will not be met with bombs and knives. Gaza is no more crowded than Tel Aviv both cities should try to flourish and cease dreaming of the other's destruction. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HeliX Posted October 7 Share Posted October 7 17 minutes ago, Chinahand said: If you support the Palestinians gaining sovereignty you should clearly and loudly condemn Hamas and wish for it to be replaced by a politics not so dominated by zealotry, rejectionism and violence. The Palestinians have tried that repeatedly for decades to no avail. What other outcome was ever going to occur? Quote Gaza is no more crowded than Tel Aviv both cities should try to flourish and cease dreaming of the other's destruction. One would imagine that's easier with billions in aid than it is under siege. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ham_N_Eggs Posted October 7 Share Posted October 7 (edited) 11 hours ago, RecklessAbandon said: Are you going to make the same post listing all the civilian dead after Oct 7th? Or are you only upset when certain ethnic groups are murdered? As @Chinahand won't list them here you go. A full minute until they reach the age of 1, an hour until it finishes. Edited October 7 by Ham_N_Eggs Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chinahand Posted October 7 Share Posted October 7 Mate, I've repeated said this is a terrible terrible tragedy and that list is very very sobering. War is a terrible thing. It isn't something I would wish on anyone. I have to say with Ukraine (100,000+) Gaza (45,000) Sudan (30,000) the world is a pretty horrible place at the moment. I hope peace will be given a chance, but the risk of it getting worse is very high. Sad. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chinahand Posted October 7 Share Posted October 7 One final comment on Ham_N_Eggs - I put the link up to the dead on October 7th because HeliX had made comments about propaganda put out in the immediate aftermath of the massacre. This propaganda was rebutted by Israel's own pensions ministry, which openly and fully accounted for the civilian deaths. Israel isn't a monolithic society, it contains both propogandists and accurate reporters, those who support armed conflict and peaceniks. It is right and proper that accurate numbers are put up and propaganda debunked. The incendiary and inaccurate statements made have been shown to be wrong. The 40 beheaded babies brigade as HeliX put it were debunked by an Israeli ministry ... and that propganda has a complex history: https://www.nbcnews.com/tech/internet/unverified-allegations-beheaded-babies-israel-hamas-war-inflame-social-rcna119902 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheTeapot Posted October 8 Share Posted October 8 Mad really that they felt the need to exaggerate the already awful events of that day. Must be a reason. Its been a whole year, and the 'goodies' have lied and lied. First casualty of war is truth and all that. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RecklessAbandon Posted October 8 Share Posted October 8 12 hours ago, Chinahand said: For fuck sack, I've repeated said this is a terrible war, it is a vast human tragedy and I wish it had never started. I support a 2 state solution, and condemn Israeli settlors and settlements. I feel terribly sad for the deaths of all sides. However, I am basically certain that nothing like it would have happened if Hamas hadn't launched its attack on October 7 2023 and I am not surprised at all that a building by building war has resulted as a result of Hamas actions and ongoing behaviour. Stopped reading after that last sentence. I disagree, the deaths would have happened, but it would have been a slow and painful march to the same inevitable outcome. Israel planting its flag in Gaza permanently. Whether through a foolish attack by Hamas or by Israel starving out the Gazan people, the end result is the same, its just the speed at which Israel achieves it. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RecklessAbandon Posted October 8 Share Posted October 8 10 hours ago, Chinahand said: Israel isn't a monolithic society, it contains both propogandists and accurate reporters, those who support armed conflict and peaceniks. Again, have to disagree. When it comes to the Israeli government - you're either wearing the boot or you're under it. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
P.K. Posted October 8 Share Posted October 8 (edited) 12 hours ago, HeliX said: The Palestinians have tried that repeatedly for decades to no avail. What other outcome was ever going to occur? Yes, the Arab League's desire to destroy the state of Israel and parcel up the territory between them has left the Palestinians in limbo. They have a great deal to answer for... Edited October 8 by P.K. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
code99 Posted October 8 Share Posted October 8 Israel’s military incursions into both Gaza and Lebanon are horrific and are bringing misery to millions. One must have a heart of stone to not be outraged at the images of mutilated children on our TV screens, some with their limbs blown-off. Military intervention is not going to bring the hostages back because they are bargaining chips in a wider war. Israel’s Government must know this and is therefore, by fighting and not negotiating, it is failing its own people. It is absolutely shameful that the international community is impotently standing by, trotting out platitudes like ‘Israel has the right to defend itself’ while at the same time providing them with the weapons they are using to attack their neighbours. What is also shameful is that the international community is allowing the Israeli Government to keep on cynically exploiting the horrors of Holocaust as an excuse for committing their own atrocities, and ignoring numerous calls from the Holocaust survivors to stop this madness. 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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