HeliX Posted October 8 Share Posted October 8 24 minutes ago, Non-Believer said: There is no discernible, peaceful outcome, this is a clash of cultures, religions and ideals, none of which can ever be defeated because of precisely what they are. Since thousands of years. Both ideals are being externally backed financially, the people on the ground are just pawns and victims. Jews and Arabs lived alongside each other prior to 1900. And still do in Haifa. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
P.K. Posted October 8 Share Posted October 8 1 hour ago, HeliX said: Jews and Arabs lived alongside each other prior to 1900. And still do in Haifa. And your point is? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HeliX Posted October 8 Share Posted October 8 15 minutes ago, P.K. said: And your point is? That clearly the "clash of cultures, religions and ideals" doesn't prevent peace. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
code99 Posted October 8 Share Posted October 8 1 hour ago, HeliX said: Jews and Arabs lived alongside each other prior to 1900. And still do in Haifa. Tragically, historically, violence has been the main means by which the Middle East map gets redrawn. Begin’s Irgun and Shamir’s Lehi gangs stuck their guns (literally) at the British Government’s head. The Brits decided they had nothing to gain by staying in Palestine. Consequently, they left and allowed the migrating Jews to fight it out with the local Arabs. The Jews won and the independent state of Israel was born. The 1967 war resulted in Israel’s annexation of additional territory. Israeli effectively controls the West Bank through its army, etc, if Palestinians revolt on mass then the West Bank will increasingly be like decimated Gaza. The same threat of endless destruction hangs heavily over Lebanon. The Israeli Government has no viable political plan to end any of its military actions, it has no plan to ends its violent quagmires. Anyway, France is calling for an embargo on the supply of arms to Israel. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Max Power Posted October 8 Share Posted October 8 I think the Israelis have decided that this will be the war to end the whole thing once and for all? A year ago, Hamas said that they would continue to repeat the Oct 7th attacks time and again, until there is no Israel. That creates an impossible scenario for Israel, they couldn't just back off and allow Hamas to back down for a while and repeat when they felt like it. I don't know how this is going to end. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chinahand Posted October 8 Share Posted October 8 I may be a hopeless optimist, but as people have said, Arab and Jew have lived peacefully together. And I think there are enough people on both sides for that to happen again. But it won't happen if a death cult religiously bound to the ideal of from the River to the Sea or death rules in Gaza. A death cult which fills schools with hatred. Which celebrates and perpetuates the cult of the Martyr. I hope that this terrible war will bring in a Gulf state backed administration into Gaza which will educate the kids to build a prosperous city, which repudiates violence. I've said repeatedly I hope Bibi and the Israeli right lose the election and I hope rebuilding and reconciling will occur. My main example is Germany in 1945 when an evil death cult was over-thrown and pragmatism on all sides allowed a new beginning. We can but hope. If the citizens of Gaza built a city like its more crowded brother, Tel Aviv, just to the north and didn't try to bomb and stab and rocket attack its neighbours, I suspect its neighbours would be very glad and trust would grow. I don't believe in ancient enmity. It has to be taught in every generation. And it is amazing how quickly if it isn't taught it is forgotten. Just think about the Germans, the Brits and the French. Egypt and Jordan can get on with Israel. There are proud Arab citizens of Israel. I hope the same can happen with Palestine. Bibi needs to go, and Hamas too. Difficult, but I don't think it is an impossible dream. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HeliX Posted October 8 Share Posted October 8 Just now, Chinahand said: If the citizens of Gaza built a city like its more crowded brother, Tel Aviv, just to the north and didn't try to bomb and stab and rocket attack its neighbours, I suspect its neighbours would be very glad and trust would grow. Do you honestly believe this is possible with the level of control and oppression Israel exerts over Gaza? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chinahand Posted October 8 Share Posted October 8 I don't know, but I suspect that control will reduce if the political party controlling it doesn't try and use every opportunity to attack Israel. I see an action and reaction issue here. The fact that Hamas wanted to use every resource it had to embed itself into the civilian infrastructure and use that as a base to attack Israel influenced Israeli behaviour. You seem to only see Israel as a cause. I see a cycle between two parties. I hope this cycle has been broken and as long as neither side starts fighting some stability should emerge. I don't think Israel wants to re-settle Gaza. I don't think 2 million people are going to disappear. I don't think there is a genocide going on. It's a war. Mohammed bin Saud's recent comments are very pertinent. The idea that a Gulf friendly administration could be installed isn't crazy. WIth Gulf states backing for a Gaza administration - negotiated as a broader treaty with the Gulf states - Israel has a reason to keep the border peaceful too - it wants an anti-Iranian deal with the Gulf states more than it wants Gaza. So the deal the Gulf states are offering Israel is - let us rebuild Gaza in our image - you keep out - and we can unite against Iran. All we can do is wait and see. But I would happily bet that 2+ million Arabs will live in the Gaza area in 10 years time and Israel will not have settled or exercise day to day control of the area. Only time will tell. What is your prognosis for the next 10 years? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HeliX Posted October 8 Share Posted October 8 Just now, Chinahand said: I don't know, but I suspect that control will reduce if the political party controlling it doesn't try and use every opportunity to attack Israel. I see an action and reaction issue here. The fact that Hamas wanted to use every resource it had to embed itself into the civilian infrastructure and use that as a base to attack Israel influenced Israeli behaviour. You seem to only see Israel as a cause. I see a cycle between two parties. I hope this cycle has been broken and as long as neither side starts fighting some stability should emerge. I don't think Israel wants to re-settle Gaza. I don't think 2 million people are going to disappear. I don't think there is a genocide going on. It's a war. Mohammed bin Saud's recent comments are very pertinent. The idea that a Gulf friendly administration could be installed isn't crazy. WIth Gulf states backing for a Gaza administration - negotiated as a broader treaty with the Gulf states - Israel has a reason to keep the border peaceful too - it wants an anti-Iranian deal with the Gulf states more than it wants Gaza. So the deal the Gulf states are offering Israel is - let us rebuild Gaza in our image - you keep out - and we can unite against Iran. All we can do is wait and see. But I would happily bet that 2+ million Arabs will live in the Gaza area in 10 years time and Israel will not have settled or exercise day to day control of the area. Only time will tell. What is your prognosis for the next 10 years? But Israel was behaving this way long before Hamas existed. People will claim that there's always been a resistance, but that's fairly obviously going to occur because there's always been brutal oppression, so yes I do see Israel's behaviour as the ultimate cause, and the thing that MUST change first in order to allow peace to be a possibility. Whether you see it as a genocide or not, 90% of the population has been displaced and a quarter of the buildings have been destroyed. The conditions which create violence - a people trapped with no meaningful future - are not going to be improved by this. My hope for the next 10 years is an immediate ceasefire, a return of the hostages, a return of democracy to Gaza, an international rebuild effort (because one is now required thanks to the level of destruction), and serious international diplomacy to bring a lasting peaceful solution. Unfortunately, my fear is that there appears to be no end to Netanyahu's appetite for death and destruction, and no will in the international community to make any serious efforts to reign him in. Given the length of the siege and the blocking of aid, the death toll from famine and disease is likely to be significant. My fear is that there won't be anything left to rebuild by the time Netanyahu is stopped. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
manxman1980 Posted October 9 Share Posted October 9 10 hours ago, code99 said: Tragically, historically, violence has been the main means by which the Middle East map gets redrawn. Violence tends to be how the borders of every country get redrawn unfortunately. 8 hours ago, Max Power said: I think the Israelis have decided that this will be the war to end the whole thing once and for all? A year ago, Hamas said that they would continue to repeat the Oct 7th attacks time and again, until there is no Israel. That creates an impossible scenario for Israel, they couldn't just back off and allow Hamas to back down for a while and repeat when they felt like it. I don't know how this is going to end. How do the West's "War on Terror" go? It may have wiped out leaders and cells of one terror organisation but ultimately it failed to completely wipe our Al-Queda and saw other terror organisations rise and commit atrocities. Best case scenario is a result like the Good Friday agreement which has resulted in a more peaceful Northern Ireland. 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
P.K. Posted October 9 Share Posted October 9 14 hours ago, HeliX said: That clearly the "clash of cultures, religions and ideals" doesn't prevent peace. Can't believe you are so naive! We have seen a rise in Militant Islam all over the place and you think it's not taking place in Gaza! Young Gazans are taught to blame Israel for all their woes from year dot. Hatred is the order of the day. Yet it was the UN Partition and the Arab League, especially Egypt, who created Gaza. Little wonder that with a youth unemployment rate of some 64% before the conflict young Palestinians are signing up to the Islamic Resistance Movement. As if taking a pop at Israel is somehow going to make their problems magically disappear ie they are completely brainwashed with no real idea of the reality of the situation. It will take quite a few generations and education away from radicals before any kind of peace and trust can be built... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
code99 Posted October 9 Share Posted October 9 (edited) 4 hours ago, manxman1980 said: Violence tends to be how the borders of every country get redrawn unfortunately. How do the West's "War on Terror" go? It may have wiped out leaders and cells of one terror organisation but ultimately it failed to completely wipe our Al-Queda and saw other terror organisations rise and commit atrocities. Best case scenario is a result like the Good Friday agreement which has resulted in a more peaceful Northern Ireland. In most cases this is absolutely correct. The history of Europe is a huge chronicle laced with periods of barbarism and violence. In recent times, Slovakia, Czech Republic, Slovenia and the Baltics have peacefully transitioned to the independence, but overall, they are outliers from the historic norm. Gulf countries are not exactly role models for peaceful co-existence either. Most of them are ruled by iron-fisted dictators who are very transactional when it comes to international diplomacy. Can they be trusted to forge a long-lasting peace in the Middle East? Personally, I doubt it, but I would be delighted to be proven wrong. As for America, and the emergence of ‘America first’ populism … enough said. I agree with you that " Best case scenario is a result like the Good Friday agreement which has resulted in a more peaceful Northern Ireland". Right now, in Europe there is one rogue state with nukes that threatens all of the other states – it is called Russia. Russia’s government oppresses and persecutes its own people, has invaded one of its neighbours and has its sights firmly set on either suppressing or conquering some of its other neighbouring states. The Islamic State, Al-Qaeda have regrouped and once again pose a threat to all of us. And we have not even talked about the impacts of climate change, which will be devastating to hundreds of millions of people. The world is standing on the precipices of various man made existential crises, but all the international community is doing is either fragmenting into political alliances or navel-gazing. Western leaders talk a lot but are increasingly doing less and less. Presumably they are hoping that all of these threats will simply go away. Well, good luck with that. Edited October 9 by code99 typo 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RecklessAbandon Posted October 9 Share Posted October 9 33 minutes ago, P.K. said: Can't believe you are so naive! We have seen a rise in Militant Islam all over the place I wonder if it has had anything to do with Western interference in the Middle East for the last god knows how long. America, Oil, and War in the Middle East | Journal of American History | Oxford Academic (oup.com) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RecklessAbandon Posted October 9 Share Posted October 9 39 minutes ago, P.K. said: Little wonder that with a youth unemployment rate of some 64% before the conflict young Palestinians are signing up to the Islamic Resistance Movement. Again, you are so close to a moment of clarity and realisation. Living in an apartheid state for decades, no access to reliable food, water, power and medicine. Businesses both "legal warfared" into submission and literally bombed into dust. No economic or geographical movement (unless you want to go through multiple invasive road blocks - which only open for a few hours on certain days). There is little wonder that young people are signing up to bloody the nose of the occupying invading force. 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HeliX Posted October 9 Share Posted October 9 1 hour ago, P.K. said: Young Gazans are taught to blame Israel for all their woes from year dot. I'm all for teaching the truth in schools. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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