Israel vs. the rest of the world?

[P.K.]

3 minutes ago, HeliX said:

I'm all for teaching the truth in schools.

Pity they passed you by...

[The Phantom]

4 hours ago, manxman1980 said:

Violence tends to be how the borders of every country get redrawn unfortunately. 

How do the West's "War on Terror" go?  It may have wiped out leaders and cells of one terror organisation but ultimately it failed to completely wipe our Al-Queda and saw other terror organisations rise and commit atrocities. 

Much to everyone's suprise, it hasn't gone as badly as most people expected in Iraq. 

Everywhere else, an abject failure.  

Not dissimilar to the war on drugs. 

ISIS were damped down for a bit, but they seem to me making a go of it again. 

44 minutes ago, code99 said:

Right now, in Europe there is one rogue state with nukes that threatens all of the other states – it is called Russia. Russia’s government oppresses and persecutes its own people, has invaded one of its neighbours and has its sights firmly set on either suppressing or conquering some of its other neighbouring states. 

Russia is behind a lot more of what is happening in the Middle East than I think a lot of people appreciate.  They are the only state that benefits from any of what is going on. 

[RecklessAbandon]

2 minutes ago, P.K. said:

Pity they passed you by...

The irony of you saying that you hasbarat shill

[P.K.]

3 minutes ago, The Phantom said:

Russia is behind a lot more of what is happening in the Middle East than I think a lot of people appreciate.  They are the only state that benefits from any of what is going on. 

As well as Iran.

[The Phantom]

3 minutes ago, P.K. said:

As well as Iran.

Together.  Iran probably wouldn't do much without a green light from Russia. 

Historically a lot of the arms would go from Russia to Iran but that's flipped recently.  They're probably receiving a lot of their own stuff back.  

Meanwhile the world is distracted away from Ukraine.

[Max Power]

45 minutes ago, RecklessAbandon said:

I wonder if it has had anything to do with Western interference in the Middle East for the last god knows how long.

America, Oil, and War in the Middle East | Journal of American History | Oxford Academic (oup.com)

I have no doubt that it has, particularly American interference, but it has to be remembered that little over 100 years ago the Middle East was under developed and without much of what was needed to survive in the 20th Century. Quite probably due to Ottoman and other controls. 

I think that Iran, Hezbollah and Hamas could begin a peace process by realising that Israel is going nowhere, all that's gone before is history and irreversible, right or wrong. And that goes for a lot of people with an immature outlook outside of these regions too!  

[RecklessAbandon]

1 minute ago, Max Power said:

I have no doubt that it has, particularly American interference, but it has to be remembered that little over 100 years ago the Middle East was under developed and without much of what was needed to survive in the 20th Century. Quite probably due to Ottoman and other controls. 

I think that Iran, Hezbollah and Hamas could begin a peace process by realising that Israel is going nowhere, all that's gone before is history and irreversible, right or wrong. And that goes for a lot of people with an immature outlook outside of these regions too!  

So they should be like PK and just accept the taste of boot and be grateful to their new overlords for wiping them out systematically?

If it carries out with its current course, Israel will become the Germany of the 30s/40s.  Which is ironic as hell.

Wait a minute, obvious and unapologetic genocide and large open air concentration camps, its all starting to look a little familiar.

[Max Power]

34 minutes ago, RecklessAbandon said:

So they should be like PK and just accept the taste of boot and be grateful to their new overlords for wiping them out systematically?

If it carries out with its current course, Israel will become the Germany of the 30s/40s.  Which is ironic as hell.

Wait a minute, obvious and unapologetic genocide and large open air concentration camps, its all starting to look a little familiar.

That isn't what I said, was it!

A lot of the problems have been caused by a violent desire by the PLO, Hamas and others to see Israel destroyed, and then the retaliation to that desire by Israel. Solutions are rejected as being a submission. 

I do love the one sided and simplistic views of some people who are quick to condemn Israel and see Hamas as some poor innocent in all this. They ignore far greater atrocities which are occurring in the same region, such as in Syria and Yemen, and the fact that Hamas sacrifices its own people to create the very sympathies which they feel.   

[RecklessAbandon]

1 minute ago, Max Power said:

That isn't what I said, was it!

A lot of the problems have been caused by a violent desire by the PLO, Hamas and others to see Israel destroyed, and then the retaliation to that desire by Israel. Solutions are rejected as being a submission. 

I do love the one sided and simplistic views of some people who are quick to condemn Israel and see Hamas as some poor innocent in all this. They ignore far greater atrocities which are occurring in the same region, such as in Syria and Yemen, and the fact that Hamas sacrifices its own people to create the very sympathies which they feel.   

Quick to condemn Israel?  Of course, they are committing war crimes on an almost daily basis while bleating that they are the victims, all the while continuing their genocide and land grab.

Do I condone Hamas's actions.  No.

Do I understand them given that they have no real standing military and even if they did they would be facing one of the best funded and equipment armies in the world, back by the biggest army in the Western world, owning a stock pile of unregistered NBC weapons and a get out of jail free card of "but we're Jewish so its okay".  Of course I do.

You know what they say about one man's freedom fighter and all that.

[HeliX]

13 minutes ago, Max Power said:

That isn't what I said, was it!

A lot of the problems have been caused by a violent desire by the PLO, Hamas and others to see Israel destroyed, and then the retaliation to that desire by Israel. Solutions are rejected as being a submission.

But do you believe they just started doing that out of boredom for shits and giggles? Or could it possibly be because Israel forced 700,000+ out of their homes, destroyed their homes, killed people, stole land? And then spent 70 years oppressing those same people, and keeping the boot on their neck?

Quote

I do love the one sided and simplistic views of some people who are quick to condemn Israel and see Hamas as some poor innocent in all this.

I haven't seen anyone in this thread describe Hamas as an innocent. What people should recognise, though, is that Hamas' existence is an inevitability under the conditions provided to Gaza by Israel.

I think if most people are honest, and imagined a situation where the Vikings came and took the IOM, claiming that that was fine because they'd been here thousands of years ago, forced everyone they loved out of their homes (or killed them), and kept them all in a camp where they occasionally "mowed the lawn" and killed a bunch of kids, with no hope or control over their future, the average person would probably be prone to some resistance.

Edited October 9 by HeliX

[Max Power]

20 minutes ago, RecklessAbandon said:

Quick to condemn Israel?  Of course, they are committing war crimes on an almost daily basis while bleating that they are the victims, all the while continuing their genocide and land grab.

Do I condone Hamas's actions.  No.

Do I understand them given that they have no real standing military and even if they did they would be facing one of the best funded and equipment armies in the world, back by the biggest army in the Western world, owning a stock pile of unregistered NBC weapons and a get out of jail free card of "but we're Jewish so its okay".  Of course I do.

You know what they say about one man's freedom fighter and all that.

There have been 'war crimes' committed by both sides in this for certain, perhaps not in the way that you are thinking though? And Hamas has committed them against their own people. 

14 minutes ago, HeliX said:

But do you believe they just started doing that out of boredom for shits and giggles? Or could it possibly be because Israel forced 700,000+ out of their homes, destroyed their homes, killed people, stole land? And then spent 70 years oppressing those same people, and keeping the boot on their neck?

I haven't seen anyone in this thread describe Hamas as an innocent. What people should recognise, though, is that Hamas' existence is an inevitability under the conditions provided to Gaza by Israel.

I think if most people are honest, and imagined a situation where the Vikings came and took the IOM, claiming that that was fine because they'd been here thousands of years ago, forced everyone they loved out of their homes (or killed them), and kept them all in a camp where they occasionally "mowed the lawn" and killed a bunch of kids, with no hope or control over their future, the average person would probably be prone to some resistance.

You keep going back in history, that is not going to resolve this conflict at all. Not many people alive today have any lived experience of what happened as Jews began returning to Israel in the late 19th century up to 1947-8. If people won't live with it, the region is doomed to continue to suffer, and there are enough documented cases of olive branches being held out, only to be met with rocket attacks. 

If the Isle of Man sent a force into Liverpool on the Ben my Chree and slaughtered an equal percentage of the UK population that Hamas did on Oct 7th, say 15,000 or so, do you think the Isle of Man would exist on October the 8th?     

[RecklessAbandon]

4 minutes ago, Max Power said:

There have been 'war crimes' committed by both sides in this for certain, perhaps not in the way that you are thinking though? And Hamas has committed them against their own people.      

One is essentially a resistance militia and the other is a global nuclear power.

While similar, they are not the same.

[HeliX]

8 minutes ago, Max Power said:

You keep going back in history, that is not going to resolve this conflict at all. Not many people alive today have any lived experience of what happened as Jews began returning to Israel in the late 19th century up to 1947-8. If people won't live with it, the region is doomed to continue to suffer, and there are enough documented cases of olive branches being held out, only to be met with rocket attacks.

History is only allowed to be invoked to justify Israel's attacks on Gaza, I forgot sorry. The "olive branches" tended to include clauses allowing Israel to perpetuate oppression.

Quote

If the Isle of Man sent a force into Liverpool on the Ben my Chree and slaughtered an equal percentage of the UK population that Hamas did on Oct 7th, say 15,000 or so, do you think the Isle of Man would exist on October the 8th? 

I don't know, but if the UK was treating the IOM the way Israel has treated Gaza for the last 70 years, I'd probably have been on that boat.

[RecklessAbandon]

I wonder, will we one day consider Hamas the "heroes" (before you snap your keyboard in half replying, hear me out)?

As late as the 90s Margaret Thatcher considered Nelson Mandela a terrorist, and until as late as 2008, the US saw him as an enemy of democracy.

The US even had Mandela and the ANC on their proscribed terrorist list, considering the South African apartheid regime as a Cold War ally against the Communists.

"“The South African government is under no obligation to negotiate the future of the country with any organization that proclaims a goal of creating a communist state, and uses terrorist tactics and violence to achieve it,” Reagan said in a 1986 speech."

""In the mid-80s, a member of Parliament named Terry Dicks said “Nelson Mandela should be shot” and asked, “How much longer will the Prime Minister allow herself to be kicked in the face by this Black terrorist?”"

"In addition to maligning Mandela and the ANC, Reagan actively praised South Africa’s apartheid regime. In 1981, he told Walter Cronkite South Africa was “a country that has stood by us in every war we’ve ever fought, a country that, strategically, is essential to the free world in its production of minerals.”"

Reagan and Thatcher opposed sanctions against the South African apartheid regime.

Now flip the above to the Israel Gaza situation, and then consider my original question.

Why Nelson Mandela Was Viewed as a 'Terrorist' by the U.S. Until 2008 (biography.com)

Edited October 9 by RecklessAbandon
Forgot source

[TheTeapot]

1 hour ago, RecklessAbandon said:

I wonder, will we one day consider Hamas the "heroes" (before you snap your keyboard in half replying, hear me out)?

 

No.

They murdered more than a thousand people and kidnapped about 300. Out of nowhere. Hamas are about as far from 'heroes' as it is possible to be, regardless of any argument.