Israel vs. the rest of the world?

[Non-Believer]

5 minutes ago, HeliX said:

If Iran attacked Israel meaningfully the US would remove it.

Which is why they use actors like Hamas and Hezbollah to do their dirty work, whilst denying everything and always have done.

But nobody is fooled and the death of Iranian "influencers" in Israeli strikes on Hamas and Hezbollah targets is proof of that.

[Chinahand]

Helix, Do you not recognise any truth in Bevin's words:

“His Majesty’s Government have thus been faced with an irreconcilable conflict of principles … For the Jews the essential point of principle is the creation of a sovereign Jewish State. For the Arabs, the essential point of principle is to resist to the last the establishment of Jewish sovereignty in any part of Palestine.”

The problem is the same now as it was in 1947. Is there any war you don't blame the Israelis for starting? Do you reject entirely that Egypt, Syria, Jordan, Iraq and Iran had the public objective of wiping Israel off the map.

One thing I've been meaning to ask you. What do you think Hamas was hoping to achieve on October 7th.

My understanding is they were hoping for a general uprising - millions of knife and AK47 wielding killers not only from Gaza, but also from the West Bank and even from Arab Israeli villages descending on their neighbours and killing them.

This is pretty clear the hope of the killers who filmed themselves descending on the kibutz.

Hamas has huge responsibilities for the war it started.

 

 

Edited Friday at 11:09 PM by Chinahand

[HeliX]

18 minutes ago, Chinahand said:

Helix, Do you not recognise any truth in Bevin's words:

“His Majesty’s Government have thus been faced with an irreconcilable conflict of principles … For the Jews the essential point of principle is the creation of a sovereign Jewish State. For the Arabs, the essential point of principle is to resist to the last the establishment of Jewish sovereignty in any part of Palestine.”

I think the framing is a bit dishonest, suggesting that the Arabs have a problem with it because it's Jewish, like it would've been accepted if it was a Christian state that people were displaced for.

Quote

The problem is the same now as it was in 1947. Is there any was you don't blame the Israelis for starting? Do you reject entirely that Egypt, Syria, Jordan, Iraq and Iran had the public objective of wiping Israel off the map.

The cause of the wars is the unjust taking of land. So it's difficult for that blame not to lie with Israel, or ultimately the British depending how you wish to look at it.

Quote

One thing I've been meaning to ask you. What do you think Hamas was hoping to achieve on October 7th.

My understanding is they were hoping for a general uprising - millions of knife and AK47 wielding killers not only from Gaza, but also from the West Bank and even from Arab Israeli villages descending on their neighbours and killing them.

This is pretty clear the hope of the killers who filmed themselves descending on the kibutz.

Hamas has huge responsibilities for the war it started.

I'm not convinced there was anything to be achieved, and I don't think there was an aim. As I've mentioned, if you remove people's political and non-violent options for altering their situation you all but guarantee violence. Worth remembering that it was actually Sinwar who organised the non-violent March of Return in 2018, which was met with crushing brutality by Israel.

 

  

18 minutes ago, Chinahand said:

Hamas has huge responsibilities for the war it started.

Do you really view Oct 7th in isolation as the start of a conflict? The status quo prior to that of violence is just something Palestinians should've expected to be willing to accept forever?

Edited Friday at 11:28 PM by HeliX

[buncha wankas]

On 10/7/2024 at 9:24 PM, Chinahand said:

For fuck sack, I've repeated said this is a terrible war, it is a vast human tragedy and I wish it had never started.

I support a 2 state solution, and condemn Israeli settlors and settlements.

I feel terribly sad for the deaths of all sides.  However, I am basically certain that nothing like it would have happened if Hamas hadn't launched its attack on October 7 2023 and I am not surprised at all that a building by building war has resulted as a result of Hamas actions and ongoing behaviour.

In my view, it is little different that what the Red Army had to do to take Berlin, Putin did in Grozny, Assad had done in Allepo. It is what happens when an entrenched and determined force resists an army determined to defeat them.

War is terrible and those who start them reap what they sow, whether they are Putin, Hamas or Hitler.

The abysmal leadership of the Palestinian people by murderous zealots has brought disaster after disaster upon them. I pity them terribly.

No society is going to take an attack on the scale of October 7th as anything other than a declaration of war. Hamas for reasons I cannot comprehend wanted, with Iran's support, to stop a deepening peace process between the gulf states and Israel.

They wanted to start a war and they got one. Quelle surprise.

 

 

 

Your ignorance is seemingly set by the Zionist narrative, the war did not start on 7th, the 1000 kneecapped Palestinian in Gaza  and dozens killed by Israel as the Palestinians protested at border of their land on the day Trump declared Jerusalem capital of Israel was not the beginning either, 120,000 Palestinians had already been murdered by Israel by then.      I hope you are not Manx and that if English decided they want to take back control of our island you would say ‘okay let’s go for a 2 state solution and leave Manx in Douglas and Bride, drive the rest off island to make way for the incoming Brits’ 

resistance of the occupying invader is not an invitation to commit genocide and ethnically cleansing.   Israeli are killing Muslim, Christian and non religious, and Jews its not a religious war, its ethic cleansing for capitalist gains. 

[buncha wankas]

1 hour ago, Non-Believer said:

Not by name but their movement and culture certainly did and has done since 1948.

If Israel dug a big hole in the ground tomorrow, disarmed and threw all their weaponry into it, Hamas, Hezbollah and any other Iranian-interest actors including ISIS would still be lobbing munitions into Israel ten and twenty years from now.

Don’t talk rot, the Palestinian who were Jewish Christian and Muslim early 1930s lived together as Palestinians until the Jewish terrorists from America started the Zionist movement, all before ww2.  Decades before 1948 new Israel rubbish, Go Figure. 

[buncha wankas]

3 hours ago, P.K. said:

It's an "advisory opinion" actually...

ICJ and UN voted and agreed unanimously, that 750,000 Israeli need to vacate Palestinian Territories and pay reparations, Palestine received all but 14 countries support last month when Palestine presented its first ever draft resolution to UN

what planet are you on that you think Palestinian are not recognised, they have lived on that land for 3,000 years documented

 

[Non-Believer]

1 hour ago, buncha wankas said:

Don’t talk rot, the Palestinian who were Jewish Christian and Muslim early 1930s lived together as Palestinians until the Jewish terrorists from America started the Zionist movement, all before ww2.  Decades before 1948 new Israel rubbish, Go Figure. 

They've been at each other since before the 1930's and both Arabs and Israelis fought insurgencies between each other and against the British in Palestine, the Israelis over attempts by the British to limit Jewish immigration after WW2. And the conflict has been promoted ever since by interested outside parties. 1948 just gave them the Kool-Aid and justification for it. You are also overlooking the regime changes in Iran since 1979.

Edited Saturday at 01:35 AM by Non-Believer
Typo

[P.K.]

7 hours ago, buncha wankas said:

ICJ and UN voted and agreed unanimously, that 750,000 Israeli need to vacate Palestinian Territories and pay reparations, Palestine received all but 14 countries support last month when Palestine presented its first ever draft resolution to UN

what planet are you on that you think Palestinian are not recognised, they have lived on that land for 3,000 years documented

With 14 against the vote was not unanimous...

They don't have a recognised state which means they are stateless. So they're not going anywhere.

I don't actually agree with the settlements in the West Bank because they make the two state solution, which is the only viable option, harder to achieve. Which, of course, is why they are doing it.

But Israel have bulldozed settlements before in the search for peace.

Unfortunately one thing that the assault on the 7th October actually achieved was to harden the anti-palestinian resolve and with evidence like that who can blame them...

[TheTeapot]

"the the victors etc" says PK, fully supportive of Putins annexing of Crimea and ongoing war in Ukraine.

What a fucking asshole

[Chinahand]

Teapot I'll leave it to PK to give his point of view but there is a terrible dose of real politique when it comes to that most geopolitical of issues: war. 

I desperately hope Putin loses. I am very worried he is using the meat grinder and the West's short attention span to achieve victory. 

It would be terrible but what do you think we should do if he wins if the Ukrainian government collapses and is replaced by a Quisling puppet. 

Start WWIII? Nuke Moscow?

If Putin wins there come a time when to the victor the spoils. That doesn't mean you support it but it is a simple geopolitical fact. 

Deterrence is making the costs of achieving victory so high they do not proceed. If Putin breaks it he owns it and a nasty guerrilla war with terrorism and reprisals is a pretty thin victory feast. 

Hopefully a compromise can be found but boy will it be difficult. 

Same in Gaza ... Though in this case the victor was never really in doubt which shows my incomprehension over the thought processes of Islamist terrorists.

 

Edited Saturday at 12:03 PM by Chinahand

[Shake me up Judy]

If Putin wins in Ukraine, Nato might as well pack up and go home. If the West really put their mind to it there's no chance that Putin could prevail. They need to keep turning the screw until it gets too hot for him and he finally gets the message. Call his bluff if it comes to it. Ukraine cannot be allowed to fall to Soviet era dictatorship. 

[Chinahand]

I totally agree but the political will isn't that strong at the moment. 

Worrying times. 

 

[HeliX]

Another day, another refugee camp bombed and settlers killing people in the West Bank.

[HeliX]

Probably had a Hamas Command Centre in his shoes to be fair.

[P.K.]

2 hours ago, TheTeapot said:

"the the victors etc" says PK, fully supportive of Putins annexing of Crimea and ongoing war in Ukraine.

What a fucking asshole

@TheTeapot

The obvious example are the Moscow satellite countries of Poland, Czechoslovakia, Hungary, Romania, Bulgaria, and East Germany. After WW2 they all fell under communist (Russian) control to create a buffer zone between the USSR and the Western Democracies.

The Crimea was essentially occupied by Russia in 2014 when the whole country was in turmoil with a political vacuum. The Crimea held a referendum that voted to be part of Russia that was generally thought to be a complete nonsense. Likewise the eastern provinces "wanted" to break away from Ukraine and essentially did.

Even a fucking arsehole like you should learn your history before mouthing off...