Israel vs. the rest of the world?

[Ham_N_Eggs]

5 minutes ago, HeliX said:

The former Israeli PM is antisemitic when he states Israel built much of the bunkers and tunnels?

The truth is that Israel has lied consistently, as I mentioned, with the express purpose of manufacturing consent for its own atrocities. That is not a "simple reality of war", it's an intentional attempt to mislead the international community to avoid scrutiny of their own atrocities. It is to be condemned.

Just now, Chinahand said:

How much is much here? 

How many kilometres have Hamas built. How much of this connects into preexisting basements and bomb shelters built prior to the Israeli withdrawal?

 

Why are you obfuscating? I posted a video specifically about the tunnels under Al Shifa which were built by Israelis to provide extra operating/hospital space. Honestly, that's a pretty disgusting accusation.

[TheTeapot]

 

[Ham_N_Eggs]

4 minutes ago, Chinahand said:

How much is much here? 

How many kilometres have Hamas built. How much of this connects into preexisting basements and bomb shelters built prior to the Israeli withdrawal?

We won't know because, if you watch the video, they didn't show the entrance or exit to this tunnel.

[TheTeapot]

That song by the way is about a descent both into the ground and madness brought about by total horror from attacks from a technologically better enemy, and a false hope for the future when actually there is none.

Amazing really.

 

[HeliX]

Israel planning to cause some more escalation in Iran.

 

 

[Shake me up Judy]

1 hour ago, TheTeapot said:

That song by the way is about a descent both into the ground and madness brought about by total horror from attacks from a technologically better enemy, and a false hope for the future when actually there is none.

Amazing really.

 

Oy vey !

[Chinahand]

4 hours ago, TheTeapot said:

All sides are ideological fanatics.

I disagree, both sides contain fanatics, but it is too simplifying to state both sides are ideological fanatics.

Hamas is not the entirety of the Palestinians, and right wing settlers are not the entirety of the Israeli political spectrum.

My view is that when you look at the two societies Palestinian society is far more ideological extremist than Israeli society, though as I have said above, I fully admit Israel does contain religious fanatics.

Palestine is not a functioning democracy, the dominant ideologies are rejectionist and violently intolerant of moderate voices, they are dominated by zealotry and martyrdom which is totally uncompromising in its objectives.

I think the actions of Hamas show this clearly.

Helix etc keep going on about how October 7th wasn't day zero, as if this is some insight.

Of course October 7th wasn't day zero and there is a long history of conflict prior to that. What is my view of that history? Well there have been periods when the political pendulums have created opportunities for peace when they have swung in sync, and other times when they have swung towards violence.

The peace settlements with Egypt (1979), Jordan (1994), UAE, Bahrain, Morocco & Sudan (2020) are hugely important, as were the Oslo Accords (1995), the establishment of the PA and Israel's withdrawal from Gaza in 2005.

I see these things as difficult, but overall sincere attempts to stop fighting and find a pathway to peace.

My understanding is HeliX thinks it is reasonable for Palestinians to reject attempts to find peace based around a land for peace formular of the 1967 boundaries.

I think that is very misguided and will result in many further tragedies.

Israel is not going away. It has build Tel Aviv a city just as crowded as Gaza but far more vibrant, democratic and progressive and in the Nagev made the desert bloom via the incredible social phenomenon which are the Kibbutz.

The Palestinians have been lead to disaster again and again by rejectionist ideologues fixated on war, while pragmatic voices have found few ways to peace.

The last time there was a genuine possibility of peace was back in 2005 when Israel accepted the PA and withdrew from Gaza. I strongly dispute this was some trap ... Kadima was a huge opportunity and for it to be rejected a tragedy.

The Palestinian bus bombing campaigns, knife attacks and total rejection of a path to peace with Hamas' take over of Gaza destroyed the Israeli peace party and ushered in 2 decades dominated by the Israeli right as the peace offerings of the left were rejected and bombed.

A terrible period when the political pendulums on both sides swung to extremes and violence.

The strangest part of this was the slow pragmatism of the wider Arab world, fed up with Palestinian extremism and the spread of Shi'ite revolutionary zeal within their own societies.

The slow and groping attempts to create an Arab-Israeli alliance against Iran, is, in my view, what precipitated the current violence. Iran's interests coincided with Hamas' in rejecting and undermining the attempts to find a wider peace.

I have said this 1000 times and will say it a 1000 times more I am sure. No society could experience a terrorist attack on the scale of October 7th and not wage war against the perpetrators.

Hamas has chosen to fight house by house, tunnel by tunnel with the results being exactly the same as whenever this has occurred in military history, whether Berlin, Cain, Allepo, Grozny or any other urban battle scape. That is a terrible terrible thing and a tragedy for the Palestinian people.

Anwar seriously hoped for a general genocidal uprising against the Jews - the blood soaked glory of a martyr rejoicing in slaughter.

The outcome is a tunnel by tunnel war of attrition. Terrible.

Where will it end? I don't know. I am reasonably sure the settlor zealots will be disappointed. I don't see a genocide and find the use of this word seriously overblown. The death toll is low compared to the slaughters Yemen, Syria, Sudan have produced. 

Millions of Palestinians will continue to live in, and will rebuild, Gaza and hopefully will be war weary enough to allow a pathway to peace to be found.

The defeat of Hamas and its rejectionist ideology, a stable ceasefire, confidence growing cooperation on norms and a roadmap to a Palestinian state are needed.

But I think it will take years. The reality of Israel and a peace settlement along the lines of the 1967 borders with land for peace swaps are the best that can be hoped for at the moment.

In a few generations maybe open borders federation and a single state, but that would be for future politicians to articulate. There is zero prospect of Israelis giving up on the IDF and opening their borders to a society ideologically friendly to Hamas. It is student politics of the worst kind to pretend anything otherwise.

[Ham_N_Eggs]

25 minutes ago, Chinahand said:

I disagree, both sides contain fanatics, but it is too simplifying to state both sides are ideological fanatics.

Hamas is not the entirety of the Palestinians, and right wing settlers are not the entirety of the Israeli political spectrum.

My view is that when you look at the two societies Palestinian society is far more ideological extremist than Israeli society, though as I have said above, I fully admit Israel does contain religious fanatics.

Palestine is not a functioning democracy, the dominant ideologies are rejectionist and violently intolerant of moderate voices, they are dominated by zealotry and martyrdom which is totally uncompromising in its objectives.

I think the actions of Hamas show this clearly.

Helix etc keep going on about how October 7th wasn't day zero, as if this is some insight.

Of course October 7th wasn't day zero and there is a long history of conflict prior to that. What is my view of that history? Well there have been periods when the political pendulums have created opportunities for peace when they have swung in sync, and other times when they have swung towards violence.

The peace settlements with Egypt (1979), Jordan (1994), UAE, Bahrain, Morocco & Sudan (2020) are hugely important, as were the Oslo Accords (1995), the establishment of the PA and Israel's withdrawal from Gaza in 2005.

I see these things as difficult, but overall sincere attempts to stop fighting and find a pathway to peace.

My understanding is HeliX thinks it is reasonable for Palestinians to reject attempts to find peace based around a land for peace formular of the 1967 boundaries.

I think that is very misguided and will result in many further tragedies.

Israel is not going away. It has build Tel Aviv a city just as crowded as Gaza but far more vibrant, democratic and progressive and in the Nagev made the desert bloom via the incredible social phenomenon which are the Kibbutz.

The Palestinians have been lead to disaster again and again by rejectionist ideologues fixated on war, while pragmatic voices have found few ways to peace.

The last time there was a genuine possibility of peace was back in 2005 when Israel accepted the PA and withdrew from Gaza. I strongly dispute this was some trap ... Kadima was a huge opportunity and for it to be rejected a tragedy.

The Palestinian bus bombing campaigns, knife attacks and total rejection of a path to peace with Hamas' take over of Gaza destroyed the Israeli peace party and ushered in 2 decades dominated by the Israeli right as the peace offerings of the left were rejected and bombed.

A terrible period when the political pendulums on both sides swung to extremes and violence.

The strangest part of this was the slow pragmatism of the wider Arab world, fed up with Palestinian extremism and the spread of Shi'ite revolutionary zeal within their own societies.

The slow and groping attempts to create an Arab-Israeli alliance against Iran, is, in my view, what precipitated the current violence. Iran's interests coincided with Hamas' in rejecting and undermining the attempts to find a wider peace.

I have said this 1000 times and will say it a 1000 times more I am sure. No society could experience a terrorist attack on the scale of October 7th and not wage war against the perpetrators.

Hamas has chosen to fight house by house, tunnel by tunnel with the results being exactly the same as whenever this has occurred in military history, whether Berlin, Cain, Allepo, Grozny or any other urban battle scape. That is a terrible terrible thing and a tragedy for the Palestinian people.

Anwar seriously hoped for a general genocidal uprising against the Jews - the blood soaked glory of a martyr rejoicing in slaughter.

The outcome is a tunnel by tunnel war of attrition. Terrible.

Where will it end? I don't know. I am reasonably sure the settlor zealots will be disappointed. I don't see a genocide and find the use of this word seriously overblown. The death toll is low compared to the slaughters Yemen, Syria, Sudan have produced. 

Millions of Palestinians will continue to live in, and will rebuild, Gaza and hopefully will be war weary enough to allow a pathway to peace to be found.

The defeat of Hamas and its rejectionist ideology, a stable ceasefire, confidence growing cooperation on norms and a roadmap to a Palestinian state are needed.

But I think it will take years. The reality of Israel and a peace settlement along the lines of the 1967 borders with land for peace swaps are the best that can be hoped for at the moment.

In a few generations maybe open borders federation and a single state, but that would be for future politicians to articulate. There is zero prospect of Israelis giving up on the IDF and opening their borders to a society ideologically friendly to Hamas. It is student politics of the worst kind to pretend anything otherwise.

Finished calling people anti-Semites for the day?

That's a lot of words to say very little. What will happen is Israel will be allowed to utterly destroy Gaza and it will do the same in the West Bank. It is a racist society and nothing other than the total expulsion and / or destruction of the native Arab population will sate them. Those Arabs they allow to say will be the serving class with a few token leaders. It is student politics of the worst kind to pretend anything otherwise.

[Chinahand]

5 minutes ago, Ham_N_Eggs said:

It is a racist society and nothing other than the total expulsion and / or destruction of the native Arab population will sate them. Those Arabs they allow to say will be the serving class with a few token leaders. It is student politics of the worst kind to pretend anything otherwise.

What do you actually know about Israel and its society. You are a caricature straight from the central casting for student useful idiots. 

[TheTeapot]

I totally agree with chinahand about the appalling leadership the Palestinians have had for decades, both in Gaza and the West Bank. Everyone's probably brain damaged from years of abuse. 

You mentioned checking your biases in one of your earlier posts. I know I've got biases, I have thought for a very very long time (long before this latest eruption of death) that Israel would wipe them all out if they could get away with it. Conscious of this bias I have been looking (hoping!!) for evidence I am wrong. Cannot find even a sniff.

Even the assassination of Hanayieh, something I openly called for a year ago, was evidence that Israel don't want peace because of its timing.

[HeliX]

1 hour ago, Chinahand said:

I have said this 1000 times and will say it a 1000 times more I am sure. No society could experience a terrorist attack on the scale of October 7th and not wage war against the perpetrators.

I agree with much of your post, but I find it staggering that you see the logic in this, but not in that Palestinians shouldn't be expected to endure decades of suffering and violence without a peep?

[HeliX]

58 minutes ago, Chinahand said:

What do you actually know about Israel and its society. You are a caricature straight from the central casting for student useful idiots. 

Well we know they think it should be legal to rape Palestinians, that seems pretty racist and depraved.

[HeliX]

I think if you looked up the definition of "useful idiot" in a dictionary you'd find Biden and Starmer standing next to crates of weapons they're about to send to Israel while bleating "I'd like to remind Israel of their obligations to follow international law".

[P.K.]

5 hours ago, HeliX said:

The major command centre with fewer guns in it than the average US house.

https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2023/11/16/what-has-israel-found-in-gazas-al-shifa-hospital

Ah yes, the Qatar funded Al Jazeera a paragon of unbiased reporting not...

It does make me smile when @HeliX claims that the casualty figures as reported by the Hamas run Health Ministry are accurate because they are in line with other (unspecified) reporting.

First off the "Health" Ministry makes no distinction whatsoever between Hamas fighters and civilians. So the unfortunates total includes what the IDF claims are Hamas dead that could be in excess of 18,000.  Obviously the strategy is to make out that ALL the casualties are innocents to inflate the figures to fool the hard of thinking. And it works.

Secondly their attempts at apportioning "blame" leave a lot to be desired as well. Lots of folks were sheltering in the grounds of the Al-Ahli hospital when an airborne munition exploded in the compound. Putting it down to an Israeli airstrike the Hamas Health Ministry announced that there had been 471 deaths and 342 wounded.

For starters the use of the word "wounded" made me wonder. If a British squaddie cuts his hand opening a tin of Compo beans it goes down as "injured". If he cuts his hand on barbed wire in combat it goes down as "wounded". It's almost as though they are trying to give the impression that everyone is a combatant.

The proportions of dead to injured also looked totally skewed as did the number involved. Especially when the crater made by the munition was only about three foot wide and a couple of feet deep.

Surprise surprise when it was announced that the culprit was probably a rocket fired at Israel by Islamic Jihad that went rogue it explained the crater size and the Hamas run Health Ministry adjusted their casualty figures downwards ASAFP...

[P.K.]

27 minutes ago, HeliX said:

I think if you looked up the definition of "useful idiot" in a dictionary you'd find Biden and Starmer standing next to crates of weapons they're about to send to Israel while bleating "I'd like to remind Israel of their obligations to follow international law".

Oh the irony...