The Old Git Posted August 11, 2014 Share Posted August 11, 2014 Spook: algebra, algorithm, alkaline, azimuth, amalgam, benzene etc etc all words when Muslims were leading the world in science mathematics, astronomy, architectue etc etc. At the same time Christians were behaving just like IS is now. Care to try to explain that? It's a bit like when Liverpool used to win the first division.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spook Posted August 11, 2014 Author Share Posted August 11, 2014 It's a cliché but whereas a Christian might say "I will die for my beliefs" a Muslim is likely to say "YOU will die for my beliefs". 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thomas Jefferson Posted August 11, 2014 Share Posted August 11, 2014 (edited) But who can say which religion is false or defective? Surely to those practising said religion it is entirely valid and justified? Clearly some of these extreme Muslims are twats, but I'd say the same of extreme Christians. I go back to my original statement and ask why can't people see each other as humans? I no desire to kill my neighbour or tell them they are believing in a false and wrong god. Religion is just make believe bollocks. Religion is irrelevant. What matters is the human being, his or her conscience or heart. You have to differentiate between mere belief in God, which even demons (a figure of speech) or a computer could accomplish, and genuinely having the spirit of God dwell in your heart. I don't think the latter is something accomplished exclusively by one religion and not by the others. I refuse to believe someone who has God in their heart is capable of killing another person except in self-defence. Edited August 11, 2014 by Thomas Jefferson Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mojomonkey Posted August 11, 2014 Share Posted August 11, 2014 It's a cliché but whereas a Christian might say "I will die for my beliefs" a Muslim is likely to say "YOU will die for my beliefs". All Muslims? That's far too lazy a quote. Would it be fair to say you don't like Muslims, if so why? Is it because they don't subscribe to your version of god? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mojomonkey Posted August 11, 2014 Share Posted August 11, 2014 (edited) But who can say which religion is false or defective? Surely to those practising said religion it is entirely valid and justified? Clearly some of these extreme Muslims are twats, but I'd say the same of extreme Christians. I go back to my original statement and ask why can't people see each other as humans? I no desire to kill my neighbour or tell them they are believing in a false and wrong god. Religion is just make believe bollocks. Religion is irrelevant. What matters is the human being, his or her conscience or heart. You have to differentiate between mere belief in God, which even demons and a computer could accomplish, and genuinely have the spirit of God dwell in your heart. I don't think the latter is something accomplished exclusively by one religion and not by the others. I refuse to believe someone who has God in their heart is capable of killing another person except in self-defence. I thought you didn't believe in a Christian god, but maybe I've lost track of what you've said you believe in previously. Anyway, i don't have god (whoever that is) in my heart or even my little toe and I'd never kill anyone. I just believe in being good to people, I don't need bollocks dressed up as religion to be like that. Ps. I love the way no one can ever seemingly answer a question on religion in a straight forward manner. Edited August 11, 2014 by mojomonkey Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thomas Jefferson Posted August 11, 2014 Share Posted August 11, 2014 I thought you didn't believe in a Christian god, but maybe I've lost track of what you've said you believe in previously. Anyway, i don't have god (whoever that is) in my heart or even my little toe and I'd never kill anyone. I just believe in being good to people, I don't need bollocks dressed up as religion to be like that. Ps. I love the way no one can ever seemingly answer a question on religion in a straight forward manner. I'm not a Christian. I'm a Deist which means I believe in a Supreme Being but not in a particular religion. I also just believe in being good to people and don't need religion to be like that. Now, that isn't to say that my Deistic beliefs and practices aren't influenced by certain religious traditions. P.S. I think that was a straight forward answer. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mojomonkey Posted August 11, 2014 Share Posted August 11, 2014 Is that like being a vegetarian that eats meat Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thomas Jefferson Posted August 11, 2014 Share Posted August 11, 2014 Is that like being a vegetarian that eats meat No. Belief in a Supreme Being / Mother Nature / a Higher Intelligence (I'm deliberately being vague because the more specific you get, the further away you get from what I mean) is based first and foremost on a primordial instinct, perhaps even a psychological archetype, and in part on reason -- it's not based on religion which is nothing but a man-made hierarchical system of control to exploit or manipulate people's innate belief in the spiritual or transcendent. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spook Posted August 11, 2014 Author Share Posted August 11, 2014 It's a cliché but whereas a Christian might say "I will die for my beliefs" a Muslim is likely to say "YOU will die for my beliefs". All Muslims? That's far too lazy a quote. Would it be fair to say you don't like Muslims, if so why? Is it because they don't subscribe to your version of god? Where did I write all Muslims? In any case what I repeated is widely in circulation and is certainly backed up by events. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chinahand Posted August 11, 2014 Share Posted August 11, 2014 Mojo, the problem as I see it is that people get so immersed in their religion that it stops them seeing people as just people, but rather as sinners, or infidels, or apostates or those who bring corruption to their religious utopia (a label too often applied to women).One of the best articles I've ever read is a brilliant critique of religious dogma by Prof Elizabeth Anderson:[M]orality, understood as a system of reciprocal claim making, in which everyone is accountable to everyone else, does not need its authority to be underwritten by some higher, external authority. It is underwritten by the authority we all have to make claims on one another. Far from bolstering the authority of morality, appeals to divine authority can undermine it. For divine command theories of morality may make believers feel entitled to look only to their idea of God to determine what they are justified in doing. It is all too easy under such a system to ignore the complaints of those injured by ones actions, since they are not acknowledged as moral authorities in their own right. But to ignore the complaints of others is to deprive oneself of the main source of information one needs to improve one’s conduct. Appealing to God rather than those affected by one’s actions amounts to an attempt to escape accountability to one’s fellow human beings.Elizabeth Anderson So, why can't someone immersed in their fundamentalist religion see someone as human - because that religion deliberately buries that identity under an identity the believer thinks is more important - the religion labels the outsider as someone rebelling against the religion. It is pernicious, but also explains why religions are so successful in spreading their mind rot. Not all religions are the same and the power of the meme to dehumanize depends upon the creed, but the a part of the problem are the hugely powerful tendency for people to exhibit in-group and out-group behaviours. I think these tendencies are basically intrinsic to humanity, and religions merely amplify them, so religion is by no means the only way people can have their humanity stripped from them. This is a two part process - a person looses their humanity and comes to think of people as not deserving humanity - and hence treats people in a way which strips them of their humanity. It is terribly sad feature of people and can emerge too easily in almost every culture religious or not. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thomas Jefferson Posted August 11, 2014 Share Posted August 11, 2014 I think these tendencies are basically intrinsic to humanity, and religions merely amplify them, so religion is by no means the only way people can have their humanity stripped from them. So does capitalism. Religion can also serve to minimise these tendencies. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chinahand Posted August 11, 2014 Share Posted August 11, 2014 So can liberalism. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thomas Jefferson Posted August 11, 2014 Share Posted August 11, 2014 So can liberalism. How? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chinahand Posted August 11, 2014 Share Posted August 11, 2014 Ps. I love the way no one can ever seemingly answer a question on religion in a straight forward manner. I studied with Daniel Chirot - this long lecture gives his account of how genocide can result. It doesn't directly touch upon religion very much, but it gives a strong explanation of how people can be inhumane. It's good, thought provoking, and explains how features common in religions can result in slaughter. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thomas Jefferson Posted August 11, 2014 Share Posted August 11, 2014 Ps. I love the way no one can ever seemingly answer a question on religion in a straight forward manner. I studied with Daniel Chirot - this long lecture gives his account of how genocide can result. It doesn't directly touch upon religion very much, but it gives a strong explanation of how people can be inhumane. It's good, thought provoking, and explains how features common in religions can result in slaughter. Likewise, features common in religions can result in emancipation, freedom, liberty, and peace. You're throwing them all under one word "religion" like they're all a singular phenomenon, which I think is wrong and just more cultural marxist bias. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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