woolley Posted August 21, 2014 Share Posted August 21, 2014 Without a 'dominant' power in the area the situation will remain a complete clusterfuck for decades Who should the dominant power be? Turkey clearly doesn't want to get involved For very good reason. Turkey has it's own ambiguities. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
woolley Posted August 21, 2014 Share Posted August 21, 2014 The problem lies in getting public backing for such an action when we have a diverse population which clearly includes some who support or are indifferent to ISIS. Then throw in the civilian casualties and it becomes distasteful to our Western civilisation which is why we have the political posturing going on at the moment. Wooley & Spook - Perhaps I did overestimate your desires to take on ISIS and I apologise. What would you say your tipping point is for direct military involvement? Well this really is the big question isn't it? You have nailed the two burning issues (underlined) that are putting our civilisation in mortal danger. The primary cancer is currently growing in The Levant. The trouble is that we have nurtured secondaries all over Europe. We have the power and technology to defeat it at the moment but it is just going to be too distasteful for a soft population brought up on political correctness. So the tipping point is probably never, unless there is a radical change in policy that is prepared to deal with some pretty unpalatable consequences. As time goes on, the more difficult it will become to keep the lid on. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chinahand Posted August 21, 2014 Share Posted August 21, 2014 I think what Mr Sausages & Donald Trump have just written is exactly right - and it is one of the reasons I think Israel's current policies don't work - they just recruit the young and idealistic into the militants savagery. There aren't a fixed number of terrorists and once you kill them all the conflict is over. Rather militant groups prosper by recruiting new recruits and been seen as protectors of a community. It really is twisted, but the civilian population of Gaza relate to Hamas striking back at the killing Israeli giant - and especially at their attacks on Israeli tanks etc when they come and destroy a suburb. The youth want to be given a gun and go and attack those tanks - Hamas sees those tanks as a brilliant recruiting sergeant - as is the social welfare they give to those made homeless by Israel's clearances, who thus become even more dependent upon Hamas' largess due to Israel's actions. Algeria is an example where the external world just left the zealots to exhaust themselves - it cost thousands of lives, but eventually the disgust at the barbarity of the zealots lowered their support until they were unable to recruit - and the idealistic were given an alternative option to place their hopes into. Similar things also were happening in Afghanistan prior to the US invasion where communities were repulsed by the barbarity of the Taliban, and in Iraq when the Sunni Awakening threw out Al-Qaeda. That was about the only US policy which worked - Patraeus gave Sunnis a focus in opposition to AQ and a purpose. One of the saddest part of Iraq's tragedy is that Maliki threw that away - his partisanship to the Shi'ite communities allowed AQ, and now IS recruit Sunnis in opposition to a partial and violent Shi'ite usurping of the Iraqi governmental power. Until these causes stop being a rallying cry and recruiting sergeant they'll continue to fester. Syria created a global call for "good" Muslims to come to protect the Muslims from Assad's violence - moderate groups weren't supported and were defeated, both by Syrian state violence and by the extremists - so volunteers coming were inducted into the extremist camp. After you've seen civillians gased and been dehumanized by propaganda and the realities of no-holds barred warfare beheading someone becomes an act of faith. Every religion cherry picks its holy books. The Koran is full of opportunities to justify violence (as is the Talmud/Bible) and so those verses come to the fore - militantizing the religion. Spook etc love that! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spook Posted August 21, 2014 Share Posted August 21, 2014 Show me anywhere in the teaching of Jesus, which when all is said and done is the fundamental of Christianity, where militarisation or violence are even supported. In the case of The Old Covenant militarism is historic rather than a recommended course of action and since the OC is based on the Torah the same applies. In any case the Torah is moderated in Judges and within the Talmud. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Donald Trumps Posted August 21, 2014 Share Posted August 21, 2014 Chinahand, my view is that the EU should take the Roman approach & fund/influence the states on the southern shores of the Mediterranean to become bulwarks against the chaos that is Africa & the Middle East in return for access to the EU market & other 'favours' - this would involve an enormous amount of funding but would be worthwhile in the long run Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spook Posted August 21, 2014 Share Posted August 21, 2014 Dane geld. Didn't work then, won't work now. Once you've paid the Dane ----- Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
P.K. Posted August 21, 2014 Share Posted August 21, 2014 Fortunately Iran is predominantly Shia and I would think the very last thing they want is a Sunni Caliphate on their borders. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spook Posted August 21, 2014 Share Posted August 21, 2014 When it comes down to the house of islam vs. the house of conflict there is only islam. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chinahand Posted August 21, 2014 Share Posted August 21, 2014 Show me anywhere in the teaching of Jesus, which when all is said and done is the fundamental of Christianity, where militarisation or violence are even supported. In the case of The Old Covenant militarism is historic rather than a recommended course of action and since the OC is based on the Torah the same applies. In any case the Torah is moderated in Judges and within the Talmud. Your totally right Spook, there's simply no way to cherry pick the New Testament to make people think violence is approved of by Christ and God ... none at all. There's simply no way to use Christ's fundamental teachings about the End-of-Days and God's vengeance to encourage dehumanizing non-believers. None at all. And of course you, being a "true" Christian, know exactly how to interpret these verses to tell us all they mean forgiveness, light and singing kumbaya together. Mathew 10:34-36 Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword. For I am come to set a man at variance against his father, and the daughter against her mother, and the daughter in law against her mother in law. And a man's foes shall be they of his own household. Mark 7 8-10 You have let go of the commands of God and are holding on to human traditions.” And he continued, “You have a fine way of setting aside the commands of God in order to observe your own traditions! For Moses said, ‘Honor your father and mother,’ and, ‘Anyone who curses their father or mother is to be put to death.’ Luke 12:46-49 46 The master of that servant will come on a day when he does not expect him and at an hour he is not aware of. He will cut him to pieces and assign him a place with the unbelievers. 47 “The servant who knows the master’s will and does not get ready or does not do what the master wants will be beaten with many blows. 48 But the one who does not know and does things deserving punishment will be beaten with few blows. From everyone who has been given much, much will be demanded; and from the one who has been entrusted with much, much more will be asked. 49 “I have come to bring fire on the earth, and how I wish it were already kindled! Luke 19:26 "The King replied ‘I tell you that to everyone who has, more will be given, but as for the one who has nothing, even what they have will be taken away. 27 But those enemies of mine who did not want me to be king over them bring them here and kill them in front of me.’” John 3:35 The Father loveth the Son, and hath given all things into his hand. 36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him. Acts 23: 20 And he shall send Jesus Christ ... which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began. 22 For Moses truly said unto the fathers, A prophet shall the Lord your God raise up unto you of your brethren, like unto me; him shall ye hear in all things whatsoever he shall say unto you. 23 And it shall come to pass, that every soul, which will not hear that prophet, shall be destroyed from among the people. 2 Thessalonians 1:8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ 1 Corinthians 15:24-25 [Jesus] will turn the Kingdom over to God the Father, having destroyed every ruler and authority and power. For Christ must reign until he humbles all his enemies beneath his feet. I could easily add many many more truly horrid verses gleefully rejoicing about violent torture and damnation of those who do not follow this particular Death Cult. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chinahand Posted August 21, 2014 Share Posted August 21, 2014 I missed Luke 22: 36-3836 Then said he unto them, But now, he that hath a purse, let him take it, and likewise his scrip: and he that hath no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one. 37 For I say unto you, that this that is written must yet be accomplished in me, And he was reckoned among the transgressors: for the things concerning me have an end. 38 And they said, Lord, behold, here are two swords. And he said unto them, It is enough. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
woolley Posted August 21, 2014 Share Posted August 21, 2014 I might have it wrong (not being the least bit religious), but I don't think that there are savages running around killing people by stone age methods in the name of Christ for a new crusade. Or if there are, there aren't so many of them and they aren't so good as the Muslims at publicity. Therefore, you can understand the blame being placed at the Muslim door for what is going on now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
P.K. Posted August 21, 2014 Share Posted August 21, 2014 I could easily add many many more truly horrid verses gleefully rejoicing about violent torture and damnation of those who do not follow this particular Death Cult. Add as many more verses as you like but you're seriously deluded if you think modern Christians take what's written in the bible as gospel. I mean, go into any British Army Recruitment Office and they'll quote verse after verse from the bible in an attempt to persuade you to sign up. Unlike ISIS and so forth... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chinahand Posted August 21, 2014 Share Posted August 21, 2014 Of course I don't think most Christians take these verses seriously - they are ignored, not taught and basically hidden - did you learn any of them in Sunday School or listening to sermons? That is in many ways my point - you cannot look to a religious text to see how believers behave, because they interpret the text as they wish to. The trouble is different groups can interpret texts differently death cults HAVE used these verses to justify violence. The Crusades made killing unbelievers an honour and verses like this have been used by Witch Hunters and zealots from the Inquisition to New Model Army with burnings and violence on a massive scale throughout medieval and early modern history. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
manxman1980 Posted August 21, 2014 Share Posted August 21, 2014 Add as many more verses as you like but you're seriously deluded if you think modern Christians take what's written in the bible as gospel. I mean, go into any British Army Recruitment Office and they'll quote verse after verse from the bible in an attempt to persuade you to sign up. Unlike ISIS and so forth... Westboro' Baptist Church is a good example of a Church and their followers cherry picking pieces of the Bible to believe. It is not that great much a leap to a group coming to light that will select the verses that Chinahand has highlighted. That is kind of the point though. It is the extremists that cause the problem and if they are able to recruit and induct others into their way of thinking then that minority can and will become more noticeable and dangerous. The same would apply to a Christian group, however, they are recruiting largely from a population where religion is on the wane and therefore cannot pick up the same support. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
P.K. Posted August 21, 2014 Share Posted August 21, 2014 All of which was bloody ages ago! For me the issue is simply that you can have modern Jews, Christians and so forth but you have to embrace stone age ideals to join the likes of ISIS. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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