Shake me up Judy Posted August 24, 2014 Share Posted August 24, 2014 Sorry Vulgarian; I tried to make myself clear but you've misunderstood what I'm saying. If that's your view then so be it, and I'm not going to go over it again. I will say though that if you think that Hamas is the product of Israeli occupation then you're very much mistaken, and the evidence is all over the region, near and far. Do you also blame Israel for the Jihadist movements in Syria, Libya, Egypt, Iraq; and further afield, Pakistan, Afghanistan, Sudan, Nigeria, Somalia, Mali, etc. ? I'm sure I've missed more than a few out there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vulgarian Posted August 24, 2014 Share Posted August 24, 2014 Sorry Vulgarian; I tried to make myself clear but you've misunderstood what I'm saying. If that's your view then so be it, and I'm not going to go over it again. I will say though that if you think that Hamas is the product of Israeli occupation then you're very much mistaken, and the evidence is all over the region, near and far. Do you also blame Israel for the Jihadist movements in Syria, Libya, Egypt, Iraq; and further afield, Pakistan, Afghanistan, Sudan, Nigeria, Somalia, Mali, etc. ? I'm sure I've missed more than a few out there. Hamas is most definitely a reaction to the political situation in Palestine. I didn't say anything of the wider issue of Jihadist movements and Islamic fundamentalism elsewhere which are all fostered in the same milieu of course, but Hamas is specifically a Palestinian liberation movement, as described in their own charter. Political correctness; with its origins in the decline of class politics and the substitution of ideology for religion; anti-Western narratives and fashionable neo-Marxist theory; the crisis of Western confidence with all its guilt and shame for the real and imagined sins of Empire; and the self-doubt and masochism instilled by the feminist and anti-racism movements; has left us impotent and has infantilized our political culture. It's time to get back to common sense folks. I'm interested as to what you mean by all that. In practical terms, what do you think we should be doing? What does this "common sense" mean in terms of action? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lxxx Posted August 24, 2014 Share Posted August 24, 2014 Sorry Vulgarian; I tried to make myself clear but you've misunderstood what I'm saying. If that's your view then so be it, and I'm not going to go over it again. I will say though that if you think that Hamas is the product of Israeli occupation then you're very much mistaken, and the evidence is all over the region, near and far. Do you also blame Israel for the Jihadist movements in Syria, Libya, Egypt, Iraq; and further afield, Pakistan, Afghanistan, Sudan, Nigeria, Somalia, Mali, etc. ? I'm sure I've missed more than a few out there. Hamas is most definitely a reaction to the political situation in Palestine. I didn't say anything of the wider issue of Jihadist movements and Islamic fundamentalism elsewhere which are all fostered in the same milieu of course, but Hamas is specifically a Palestinian liberation movement, as described in their own charter. Political correctness; with its origins in the decline of class politics and the substitution of ideology for religion; anti-Western narratives and fashionable neo-Marxist theory; the crisis of Western confidence with all its guilt and shame for the real and imagined sins of Empire; and the self-doubt and masochism instilled by the feminist and anti-racism movements; has left us impotent and has infantilized our political culture. It's time to get back to common sense folks. I'm interested as to what you mean by all that. In practical terms, what do you think we should be doing? What does this "common sense" mean in terms of action? We should remember a quote from former Israeli Mossad case officer Victor Ostrovsky, gleaned in the early 90′s, from his book, The Other Side of Deception: “Supporting the radical elements of Muslim fundamentalism sat well with the Mossad’s general plan for the region. An Arab world run by fundamentalists would not be a party to any negotiations with the West, thus leaving Israel again as the only democratic, rational country in the region. And if the Mossad could arrange for the Hamas (Palestinian fundamentalists) to take over the Palestinian streets from the PLO, then the picture would be complete.“ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pongo Posted August 24, 2014 Share Posted August 24, 2014 We should remember a quote from former Israeli Mossad case officer Victor Ostrovsky His outlandish claims are only taken seriously on the right wing conspiracy nutter internet. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lxxx Posted August 24, 2014 Share Posted August 24, 2014 We should remember a quote from former Israeli Mossad case officer Victor Ostrovsky His outlandish claims are only taken seriously on the right wing conspiracy nutter internet. You're a real beauty. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dreidel Dreidelsohn Posted August 24, 2014 Share Posted August 24, 2014 Yeh, the same nutter itnernet he gets his fake Talmud quotes and Khazari conspiracy theory from. Lxxx, you seem to be awake to the bullshit going on in the world, and I'm inclined to agree with a lot of your criticism of the Israeli Government (all governments are trash IMHO) but you sure do swallow the propaganda against Israel as a nation and the Jews as a people. I guess nobody's perfect. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dreidel Dreidelsohn Posted August 24, 2014 Share Posted August 24, 2014 Or maybe I'm wrong. Show me the proof. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lxxx Posted August 24, 2014 Share Posted August 24, 2014 Yeh, the same nutter itnernet he gets his fake Talmud quotes and Khazari conspiracy theory from. Lxxx, you seem to be awake to the bullshit going on in the world, and I'm inclined to agree with a lot of your criticism of the Israeli Government (all governments are trash IMHO) but you sure do swallow the propaganda against Israel as a nation and the Jews as a people. I guess nobody's perfect. I'm not opposed to Israel as a nation nor the Jewish people. Why would I be? Faced against the rise of radical Islam they're doing a job that the rest of the world should probably be thankful for as liberalism seems to be laying out the red carpet in the west. However I don't automatically agree with the way the Israeli government go about things a lot of the time and things are rarely black and white (no pun intended) nor as they seem in the media. As for the Talmud, there are a great many right wing Jews who interpret the Talmud to the extreme, the same as extremists with the Qu'ran. We shouldn't pander to any of them as they're both as bad as each other, however we don't see balanced coverage in the media, if at all. As for 'Khazar conspiracies' I'm not in the least bit interested. My critique of Jewish heritage and it's divine right to it's homeland based on biblical tradition comes from my disdain for all forms of religious mind control. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spook Posted August 25, 2014 Share Posted August 25, 2014 The Quran can not be interpreted to mean anything other than what it contains and hadith underscore. When it comes to The Talmud, WHICH Talmud? The Talmud is in essence a living document that relates to present day life and vice versa. What's more Israel isn't positioned on its Biblical traditions, it's situated on a part of what used to be the lands where the twelve tribes lived and it's situated there by the will of the League of Nations and the decisions of the United nations. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thomas Jefferson Posted August 25, 2014 Share Posted August 25, 2014 My critique of Jewish heritage and it's divine right to it's homeland based on biblical tradition comes from my disdain for all forms of religious mind control. The Jewish right to live in their own homeland is based not on religion but on it having genuinely been their homeland for 4,000 years. Although their early history is intertwined with religion and mythology, the history and archaeology does confirm that they were there. How they got there and whether there was a God involved is really beside the point -- that they were there is all that matters. It is their homeland. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lxxx Posted August 25, 2014 Share Posted August 25, 2014 My critique of Jewish heritage and it's divine right to it's homeland based on biblical tradition comes from my disdain for all forms of religious mind control. The Jewish right to live in their own homeland is based not on religion but on it having genuinely been their homeland for 4,000 years. Although their early history is intertwined with religion and mythology, the history and archaeology does confirm that they were there. How they got there and whether there was a God involved is really beside the point -- that they were there is all that matters. It is their homeland. So they lived there 4000 years ago? So what? Most people on the planet could lay claim to...most of the planet....if we all went back far enough in history. Most of your cherished Manx could probably lay claim to a Nordic region if we went back 4000 years. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thomas Jefferson Posted August 25, 2014 Share Posted August 25, 2014 My critique of Jewish heritage and it's divine right to it's homeland based on biblical tradition comes from my disdain for all forms of religious mind control. The Jewish right to live in their own homeland is based not on religion but on it having genuinely been their homeland for 4,000 years. Although their early history is intertwined with religion and mythology, the history and archaeology does confirm that they were there. How they got there and whether there was a God involved is really beside the point -- that they were there is all that matters. It is their homeland. So they lived there 4000 years ago? So what? Most people on the planet could lay claim to...most of the planet....if we all went back far enough in history. Most of your cherished Manx could probably lay claim to a Nordic region if we went back 4000 years. No, Lxxx - you're not getting what I'm saying. They didn't just live there 4,000 years ago and then suddenly disappear and show up 4,000 years later -- they've LIVED THERE for 4,000 years. 2,000 years of that time they had a nation there and it's during that 2,000 years that their civilisation, law, religion, language, music, literature, and culture developed. Their formative MILLENIA were spent in the land of Israel. Even for the last 2,000 years they've had a community there despite a majority of them being ethnically cleansed and exiled abroad. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lxxx Posted August 25, 2014 Share Posted August 25, 2014 My critique of Jewish heritage and it's divine right to it's homeland based on biblical tradition comes from my disdain for all forms of religious mind control. The Jewish right to live in their own homeland is based not on religion but on it having genuinely been their homeland for 4,000 years. Although their early history is intertwined with religion and mythology, the history and archaeology does confirm that they were there. How they got there and whether there was a God involved is really beside the point -- that they were there is all that matters. It is their homeland. So they lived there 4000 years ago? So what? Most people on the planet could lay claim to...most of the planet....if we all went back far enough in history. Most of your cherished Manx could probably lay claim to a Nordic region if we went back 4000 years. No, Lxxx - you're not getting what I'm saying. They didn't just live there 4,000 years ago and then suddenly disappear and show up 4,000 years later -- they've LIVED THERE for 4,000 years. 2,000 years of that time they had a nation there and it's during that 2,000 years that their civilisation, law, religion, language, music, literature, and culture developed. Their formative MILLENIA were spent in the land of Israel. Even for the last 2,000 years they've had a community there despite a majority of them being ethnically cleansed and exiled abroad. No, I'm reading you loud and clear. Maybe I came across too literal. I'm well aware that there has been a community of sorts there throughout history. I'm just not fully embracing the concept that says 'Fcuk whoever lives there now, we're taking your land because of some deal agreed in London, without you having any involvement and say in the matter.' Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spook Posted August 26, 2014 Share Posted August 26, 2014 Never let facts and history get in the way of a bit of anti-Semitism eh? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Evil One Posted August 26, 2014 Share Posted August 26, 2014 Or never facts or history get in the way of blind, unthinking support for Israel? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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