Israeli Lebensraum

[Amadeus]

 

Seriously? Another thread about Israel?

Antisemitism is a mental illness.

 

 

I'm really not going to get sucked into any argument with someone like you, TJ, but just one thing: this has fuck all to do with antisemitism, although it's always a convenient excuse and card to play.

[Thomas Jefferson]

 

Antisemitism is a mental illness.

 

I'm really not going to get sucked into any argument with someone like you, TJ, but just one thing: this has fuck all to do with antisemitism, although it's always a convenient excuse and card to play.

 

Someone smarter than you?

 

It has everything to do with antisemitism. It is antisemitism. The whole anti-Israel movement is rooted in a vicious hatred of Jews. You only have to listen to the people saying Israel has no right to exist to see they're sick and twisted racists -- and the level of ignorance is extraordinary. It makes me cringe that there are so many ignorant people in the 21st century when we have nearly universal literacy and unprecedented access to knowledge.

[Thomas Jefferson]

 

Manx are a minority in our own land too. It's still our goddamn island, though! Walter....

Wait 'till the Norsemen return to reclaim your rock

 

 

The Norsemen who came to the Isle of Man settled and intermarried with the natives. Manx people are Norse and Celtic.

[Amadeus]

 

 

Antisemitism is a mental illness.

 

I'm really not going to get sucked into any argument with someone like you, TJ, but just one thing: this has fuck all to do with antisemitism, although it's always a convenient excuse and card to play.

 

Someone smarter than you?

 

It has everything to do with antisemitism. It is antisemitism. The whole anti-Israel movement is rooted in a vicious hatred of Jews. You only have to listen to the people saying Israel has no right to exist to see they're sick and twisted racists -- and the level of ignorance is extraordinary. It makes me cringe that there are so many ignorant people in the 21st century when we have nearly universal literacy and unprecedented access to knowledge.

 

 

Yes, whatever, you're the man, man. Like I said, I'm not gonna get sucked into an argument with you. You crack on in your wonderful world of unicorns and underpaid fairies.

[Fichdich]

 

 

Antisemitism is a mental illness.

I'm really not going to get sucked into any argument with someone like you, TJ, but just one thing: this has fuck all to do with antisemitism, although it's always a convenient excuse and card to play.

Someone smarter than you? It has everything to do with antisemitism. It is antisemitism. The whole anti-Israel movement is rooted in a vicious hatred of Jews. You only have to listen to the people saying Israel has no right to exist to see they're sick and twisted racists -- and the level of ignorance is extraordinary. It makes me cringe that there are so many ignorant people in the 21st century when we have nearly universal literacy and unprecedented access to knowledge.

I am not a sick, nor twisted racist. I have many friends who are Jewish. I have been many times to Israel, worked 12 months on a Kibbutz, in my youth, in the Negev. I have a right to express an opinion. Your mental health problems on Anti Semitism add nothing to this post. The basic tenets of Zionism, along with Biblical nonsense do not legitimise the theft, by a Cult, of an entire land and the expulsion of it's people. Read some real history you fucking moron.

[Chinahand]

I have to agree with many that I find TJ's justifications on this subject puerile.

 

However I would like to understand how the taking of land which indutibly the Israelis do not have sovereignty over can be justified by those partisan enough to support it.

[pongo]

I have to agree with many that I find TJ's justifications on this subject puerile.

 

However I would like to understand how the taking of land which indutibly the Israelis do not have sovereignty over can be justified by those partisan enough to support it.

Puerile is a good word in the circumstances. Several posters on this thread have also raised the question of whether Israel has a right to exist:

 

The internationally agreed United Nations plan for the division of the region known as Palestine (never a country) was accepted by what became the Israeli side. The plan proposed two states. Israel would have been much smaller than her current borders. Non Jews living in the area were not well represented in negotiations - the Arab countries invaded in rejection of the UN plan. They invaded for their own political and nationalistic reasons - not to protect rights.

 

The Arab- Israeli War of 1948 result in many people being displaced. On both sides. Including many Jews living in the Middle East who were either expelled or fled. Many of them ended up in Israel - alongside those who were indigenous and those who had returned from Soviet and Nazi oppression.

 

The era of Arab nationalism and the Cold War escalated the tensions - resulting in the '67 and '73 wars and the rise of terrorism. The expulsion of the Palestinians from their homeland in Jordan as a result of the PLO militancy left them effectively stateless. They were betrayed by the PLO.

 

All of the time Israel has had to be on constant guard. Today things are weirder than ever. Hamas is essentially Sunni - but is backed (off and on) by Iran which is Shia. And Hamas as a nationalist organisation does not get on with ISIS who are Sunni ... but who possibly make Hamas seem almost normal. And then there is Hezbollah. Hamas sometimes like them but not always. And Fatah. And ...

 

.. and the answer to your question is that until the right of Israel to exist is accepted Israel is inevitably going to occupy buffer zones. The simple fact is that none of this is even going to begin to get sorted out until Israel is no longer threatened by the sort of people who think that Israel should not exist. Israel are the normal people in this. And maybe 30 years after peace things will start to normalise and improve.

 

The bit by bit thawing of international relations with Iran and the rise of ISIS may somehow represent the beginning of the end. Recent events in the Middle East blow the lid of the old anti-semitic idea that all of the problems are really about Israel. Also - there are increasingly close business relations between Israel and various other Middle East countries. Modern Israel should be a model for the region.

[Deep State News]

As you might have seen in the media, local man Phil Craine recently spent three months working as a human rights observer in Palestine and Israel. I've made a recording of his lecture on his experience in the West Bank, which is now on youtube -

 

http://youtu.be/Az0-rVBGkL8

[Gladys]

I am not an authoritative historian, but it seems that when land is divvied up without regard to the indigenous population, the malcontent will fester for decades, even centuries. There will not be a good outcome.

 

I happened to do a bit of research on Jewish names yesterday, to understand where the Gold prefix comes from . The results were very interesting and help to explain the Jewish journey.

 

Traditionally, Jewish names were a description of their antecedents - Martha daughter (ben) of Rebecca, Isaac son of (bin) Jacob. But in central Europe that wouldn't do so Jews were required to adopt surnames, surprisingly quite recently, and normally reflecting their occupation but with a patronymic or matronymic suffix.

 

So, Jews were stripped of their cultural and familial identity. That was long before the horrors of the Holocaust but contemporary to many other abuses and pograms.

 

It probably won't help in this debate, but it does explain or exemplify why a Jewish homeland is so important. It has allowed a history.

 

Do I agree with what the Israelis are doing now? No, and very sadly what is going on now will, ultimately, benefit no one. The biggest mistake was the Balfour Treaty and the Palestinian Mandate. Great at the time, but they were quick fixes and to a century old problem.

[Chinahand]

I very strongly support Israel's right to exist and defend itself and I pretty much agree with Pongo's analysis, but the whole point of holding buffers until a peace settlement can be found is to be able to give them up.

 

What I don't understand is that the Israeli Supreme Court has recognised that Israel does not have sovereignty over the occupied territories but settlements continue. That is contradictory to Israel's tradition of respecting the rule of law.

 

The creeping annexation of the settlements is a barrier to a peace process and nullifying the chances of Land for Peace.

 

It is illegal, counter productive and strengthens the hands of those who, often for fundamentalist religious reasons, desire a Greater Israel over peace.

 

I think that is a disaster for those who aspire for Israel to be left in peace.

[Thomas Jefferson]

I am not a sick, nor twisted racist. I have many friends who are Jewish. I have been many times to Israel, worked 12 months on a Kibbutz, in my youth, in the Negev. I have a right to express an opinion. Your mental health problems on Anti Semitism add nothing to this post. The basic tenets of Zionism, along with Biblical nonsense do not legitimise the theft, by a Cult, of an entire land and the expulsion of it's people. Read some real history you fucking moron.

 

 

Your entire post is filled with antisemitic venom.

 

Zionism is the belief that Jews should have national self-determination in the land of Israel. Zionism is an essential part of Judaism, which you refer to as "a cult" (no, that's not antisemitic at all, is it?). The Jews did not steal an "entire land" (disinformation). For starters, it is their land, their homeland, where they have lived for 4,000 years, and the only reason Jews ended up in other countries is because they were violently expelled and subjected to genocide by the Romans. It was the Romans, trying to erase the Jewish connection with the land in the 2nd Century CE, who renamed it "Palaestina" and renamed their capital city, Jerusalem, to "Aelia Capitolina". However, there has been a continuous Jewish presence in the area, and yes, at various times in history they were a minority, but I fail to see how that has any relevance. Their minority status was due to them being forced out and because of repeated attempts to ethnically cleanse them from the area. The Arabs were just another group of conquerors who stole Jewish land. The Israelis have every right to build new settlements in their own land. You talk as if they just arbitrarily steal land, but they're building on land which was not in use and was either legally purchased from Arab landowners or on land acquisitioned during wars which Israel did not start. How did the Arabs come to own the land in the first place? By violently conquering the area and subjugating the Jews as "dhimmis". It's necessary for Israel to have a buffer zone, because if you remove the West Bank from the map then their country becomes very thin and open to invasion.

[Thomas Jefferson]

I am not an authoritative historian, but it seems that when land is divvied up without regard to the indigenous population, the malcontent will fester for decades, even centuries. There will not be a good outcome.

 

 

Jews are the indigenous population, Gladys, and they have every right, as any nation does, to set their own immigration policies and decide other descendants of the indigenous population, violently expelled from the land, can return to it. A majority of Israel is of Sephardic and Mizrahi origin. That means they're not, as some brain-dead morons on here would have you believe, European. They are Middle Eastern. Arabs are indigenous to Arabia.

 

I happened to do a bit of research on Jewish names yesterday, to understand where the Gold prefix comes from . The results were very interesting and help to explain the Jewish journey.

 

Traditionally, Jewish names were a description of their antecedents - Martha daughter (ben) of Rebecca, Isaac son of (bin) Jacob. But in central Europe that wouldn't do so Jews were required to adopt surnames, surprisingly quite recently, and normally reflecting their occupation but with a patronymic or matronymic suffix.

 

Orthodox Jews still use that name format, Gladys, in addition to using the now standard first name and surname format. On religious documents, wedding certificates, etc, they still use that.

 

It was around the late middle ages when people began to take on surnames. It wasn't specifically targeted at Jews. That's why you find many Jews and non-Jews sharing the same surname. One notable example would be the name Frank -- the etymology is fairly obvious, but then you have Hans Frank (the butcher of Poland) and Anne Frank. It's the same with surnames with Gold in them. These surnames depended entirely on the trade or location of your ancestors at that point in time.

 

It probably won't help in this debate, but it does explain or exemplify why a Jewish homeland is so important. It has allowed a history.

 

Do I agree with what the Israelis are doing now? No, and very sadly what is going on now will, ultimately, benefit no one. The biggest mistake was the Balfour Treaty and the Palestinian Mandate. Great at the time, but they were quick fixes and to a century old problem.

 

There is already a Jewish homeland. It has always been their homeland. The only thing missing was Jewish self-determination in that homeland. For two thousand years they had no self-determination and were subject to violent and oppressive invaders, like the Romans, then the Byzantines, and then the Islamics -- the latter being the very Arabs who are now being paraded by ignorant people as the "indigenous" inhabitants. It's nonsense. Jews are the indigenous inhabitants and they have every right as a sovereign nation to offer a right of return to other Jews.

[spook]

There is a very strong argument that ALL of the land that formed the former British Mandate after Jordan was established as the half that was to the Arab sector should have constituted the modern nation state of Israel. It is an argument that I fully endorse. If anything it is the Israeli people who should be fighting to drive the so called palestinians out of Israeli land. Maybe if more people studied the history regarding the dissolution of the Ottoman Empire and what then happened and decisions reached at the international League of Nations and later at the United Nations and then what the Arabs did a whole lot more support for the Israelis and a whole lot LESS support for the Arab nomads that were expelled from Jordan would result.

[spook]

 

 

 

Antisemitism is a mental illness.

I'm really not going to get sucked into any argument with someone like you, TJ, but just one thing: this has fuck all to do with antisemitism, although it's always a convenient excuse and card to play.

Someone smarter than you? It has everything to do with antisemitism. It is antisemitism. The whole anti-Israel movement is rooted in a vicious hatred of Jews. You only have to listen to the people saying Israel has no right to exist to see they're sick and twisted racists -- and the level of ignorance is extraordinary. It makes me cringe that there are so many ignorant people in the 21st century when we have nearly universal literacy and unprecedented access to knowledge.

I am not a sick, nor twisted racist. I have many friends who are Jewish. I have been many times to Israel, worked 12 months on a Kibbutz, in my youth, in the Negev. I have a right to express an opinion. Your mental health problems on Anti Semitism add nothing to this post. The basic tenets of Zionism, along with Biblical nonsense do not legitimise the theft, by a Cult, of an entire land and the expulsion of it's people. Read some real history you fucking moron.

"I have Jewish fiends" How similar to "I have negro friends" as racists come out with in an attempt to deny their horrible racism. And fool no one.

[Tugger]

There is a very strong argument that ALL of the land that formed the former British Mandate after Jordan was established as the half that was to the Arab sector should have constituted the modern nation state of Israel. It is an argument that I fully endorse. If anything it is the Israeli people who should be fighting to drive the so called palestinians out of Israeli land. Maybe if more people studied the history regarding the dissolution of the Ottoman Empire and what then happened and decisions reached at the international League of Nations and later at the United Nations and then what the Arabs did a whole lot more support for the Israelis and a whole lot LESS support for the Arab nomads that were expelled from Jordan would result.

 

Thankfully most people ignore the opinions of religious nuts like you.

 

Here's the situation, it couldn't be clearer: Israel was established in 1948, with internationally recognised borders. It's entitled to territory within those borders. It's not entitled top territory outside those borders, and when it tries to take it, it's just like a dirty little thief.

 

And the ultra-sneaky bit is the way they're trying to do it incrementally, so that they can avoid allegations of apartheid. But anyone who cares to look can see that this is exactly what it is