Shake me up Judy Posted November 7, 2014 Author Share Posted November 7, 2014 I knew Ceaseless Change reminded me of somebody: http://youtu.be/l3OO42dKxfY Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ceaseless Change Posted November 7, 2014 Share Posted November 7, 2014 I knew Ceaseless Change reminded me of somebody: http://youtu.be/l3OO42dKxfY Ad Hominem. The last refuge of the unscrupulous and vacuous. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
woolley Posted November 7, 2014 Share Posted November 7, 2014 Maybe if we despatch them at a young age, we can breed it out of future generations. Even if we can't, at least we don't have to keep them and pontifcate endlessly about how to solve their "issues".I think that was in "Mein Kampf". Quite possibly. And as a result, because of those days, we were so horrified that we threw the baby out with the bath water and set a disastrous, over liberal course. I think this can only be taken to mean that you think that one of the things the Nazi's should take the blame for is making eugenics beyond the pale. Those damned Nazi's, screwing up our right to execute children! I think you need to get your head examined. Emotive language that liberals always use when cornered. Like "beating children" for mild smacking. I am not contributing emotive language, and i'm just repeating what you said back to you, using different, accurate words. "Those days" you referred to were the Nazi days. Hitler wrote Mein Kampf. You endorsed that as relevant. "Maybe if we despatch them at a young age, we can breed it out of future generations" - this is eugenics. Breeding out bad traits is literally the definition of eugenics. And "despatching" them rather than simply selectively reproducing is how the NAZI'S did eugenics, which is surely why you took the Mein Kampf reference seriously, when it was clearly meant to be a satire on the extremity of your views. Are you a nazi sympathiser?! Albert brought it up cleverly. I answered it lightheartedly. You took it all in like a toilet, clearly never having heard of irony. But you are right of course, we must allow every individual to reach their full potential, however deadly that might be for the defenceless in their path. People like you brought society to where it is today and now we have generations similarly brainwashed. The road to hell is paved with good intentions and you clearly have lots of those. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ceaseless Change Posted November 7, 2014 Share Posted November 7, 2014 But you are right of course, we must allow every individual to reach their full potential, however deadly that might be for the defenceless in their path. I refer you to my previous response last time you deliberately misrepresented me.... You (and Shake Me Up Judy) are also outrageously misrepresenting me and what I think despite my repeated and clear explanations. I do NOT advocate releasing genuinely dangerous people back in to the community. I cannot say that any more clearly. I'm disengaging now, I've said all I can say to you, you've listened to none of it, and answered none of my questions or points with any sincerity or thought. You ignore facts you don't like, and argue for facetious things like summary executions whilst apparently being absolutely serious that you really do advocate something so insane. It's called trolling, and to boot you've importuned me with a serious mental illness, and completely failed to tread lightly around a very difficult issue for someone who has been through something awful quite recently. You evidently don't give a fig, and I think that says plenty about you. Good day sir. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Border Terrier Posted November 7, 2014 Share Posted November 7, 2014 He didn't even get expelled. What! And adversely affect the school's Ofsted rating? http://www.ofsted.gov.uk/ TBT. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ScotsAlan Posted November 7, 2014 Share Posted November 7, 2014 What if the boy was your son? Your only child. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paswt Posted November 7, 2014 Share Posted November 7, 2014 I wouldn't be standing at the back of the court shouting "he's a good boy really your honour" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sausage Posted November 8, 2014 Share Posted November 8, 2014 Some interesting points raised. I dont really agree with the age limit argument...in life there some very mature 13 or 14 year olds and some very immature 16 or 17 year olds (I was probably more the latter !)..So I dont think it can be right that if somebody commits a horrific crime when they are 15 years old and 11 months they automatically qualify to be treated as a minor and therefore expect lighter sentencing....it needs to be looked at based on the crime and the person involved. I had the misfortune of having to sit through a trial in the IOM recently to support a friend who had an elderly family member who was savagely attacked by a teenager and medical reports said it was a miracle he survived.....The defence lawyer struggled in court to offer much of a case at all...all psychological reports etc were exhausted and could find no reasoning, the defendant refused to give any reasoning...and in summing up the defence lawyer said he found it difficult to assess what risk this individual posed going forward as he offered literally no insight into his mindset or reasoning for carrying out this attack despite months of experts trying to find out why...This individual had been cruel and sadistic to others since an early age. He may well be out walking the streets of IOM by 2020...meanwhile the people affected continue to suffer and no doubt worry about the possibility of the day arriving when he is released....are you comfortable knowing that your family members may inadvertantly come into contact with this person ? I am not sure its possible to rehabilitate some people so that they are in a position to be trusted in public again..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shake me up Judy Posted November 8, 2014 Author Share Posted November 8, 2014 You're right Sausage. The liberal left delusion is that we live in an essentially improving world, where offenders and wrong-doers are just slightly behind the rest of us in the good society; and are merely misguided, poorly socialised, victims of disadvantage etc. Through tolerance, enlightened policy and ideals; through help and treatment; we can and will progress to a world where crime becomes less and we turn out better people. The real obstacle to the realisation of this utopian dream are not the criminals but the traditionalists, the neanderthals, reactionary unbelievers, and those not 'aboard the train'. We are the ones who are holding back this progressive utopia and liberal la-la land. Well take a good look around you. I don't see society getting any better, but it could just be the old Celtschmerz getting the better of me again. I'll try to keep the faith. Don't stop believin' eh.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ceaseless Change Posted November 8, 2014 Share Posted November 8, 2014 You're right Sausage. The liberal left delusion is that we live in an essentially improving world, where offenders and wrong-doers are just slightly behind the rest of us in the good society; and are merely misguided, poorly socialised, victims of disadvantage etc. Through tolerance, enlightened policy and ideals; through help and treatment; we can and will progress to a world where crime becomes less and we turn out better people. The real obstacle to the realisation of this utopian dream are not the criminals but the traditionalists, the neanderthals, reactionary unbelievers, and those not 'aboard the train'. We are the ones who are holding back this progressive utopia and liberal la-la land. Well take a good look around you. I don't see society getting any better, but it could just be the old Celtschmerz getting the better of me again. I'll try to keep the faith. Don't stop believin' eh.... I can't speak for the liberal left, but if as you claim they believe that ALL criminals can realistically be perfectly rehabilitated then they are obviously wrong. I'm not sure they do claim that about ALL criminals though. I suspect some straw manning is going on here. On the other hand you seem to be claiming the inverse, that NO criminals can be properly rehabilitated. Surely the truth lies between these two extremes. There is an argument over whether in THEORY every criminal could be rehabilitated given enough time and resources, but to me it's so obvious im surprised it needs saying that in PRACTICE: SOME criminals can be rehabilitated. SOME cannot realistically, in a sensible time and at a sensible cost at least. And SOME may be incapable of rehabilitation no matter what we do. Surely everyone can agree on that! The questions then are: 1) What are the proportions of these groups? I think there is huge disagreement here depending on how "evil" you think some people are and how effective you think rehabilitation can be in various situations. But anyone who thinks any one of those groups is zero I think has some serious factual problems to overcome before they should be taken seriously. 2) what should be done with the various groups? To my mind the answer is obvious - rehabilitate those that can be, and protect the public from those that can't. However public finances rears it's head here - because some people may not be treatable, and yet keeping them locked up is very expensive. Reasonable people might disagree on where the cost benefit line is between it being worth our tax money to keep some people in jail vs other people. For instance, keeping a paedophile who cannot or refuses to rehabilitate locked up his whole life doesn't bother me at all. However keeping a pot dealer who refuses to give up his trade in jail his whole life would to me be an outrageous waste of my tax money. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
woolley Posted November 8, 2014 Share Posted November 8, 2014 You're right Sausage. The liberal left delusion is that we live in an essentially improving world, where offenders and wrong-doers are just slightly behind the rest of us in the good society; and are merely misguided, poorly socialised, victims of disadvantage etc. Through tolerance, enlightened policy and ideals; through help and treatment; we can and will progress to a world where crime becomes less and we turn out better people. The real obstacle to the realisation of this utopian dream are not the criminals but the traditionalists, the neanderthals, reactionary unbelievers, and those not 'aboard the train'. We are the ones who are holding back this progressive utopia and liberal la-la land. Well take a good look around you. I don't see society getting any better, but it could just be the old Celtschmerz getting the better of me again. I'll try to keep the faith. Don't stop believin' eh.... Wonderful post that succinctly describes the current state of play. As for worries about the public finances; rehabilitation is expensive whether it works or not. Rope is cheap and very effective. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sheldon Posted November 8, 2014 Share Posted November 8, 2014 Rope is cheap and very effective. Very true, but even where this ultimate sanction is actually available the legal process has been known to consume a few decades and several millions of dollars. It does seem to be a slightly more streamlined process in China, say, or Iran, but I think I'll continue to take my chances here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
woolley Posted November 9, 2014 Share Posted November 9, 2014 Yes. I don't believe in the decades of delay. That does seem to be a particularly exquisite form of torture. Mind you it does make oodles of money for fat cat lawyers and that, after all, is the main raison d'être of the legal system. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Border Terrier Posted November 9, 2014 Share Posted November 9, 2014 You're right Sausage. The liberal left delusion is that we live in an essentially improving world, where offenders and wrong-doers are just slightly behind the rest of us in the good society; and are merely misguided, poorly socialised, victims of disadvantage etc. Through tolerance, enlightened policy and ideals; through help and treatment; we can and will progress to a world where crime becomes less and we turn out better people. The real obstacle to the realisation of this utopian dream are not the criminals but the traditionalists, the neanderthals, reactionary unbelievers, and those not 'aboard the train'. We are the ones who are holding back this progressive utopia and liberal la-la land. Well take a good look around you. I don't see society getting any better, but it could just be the old Celtschmerz getting the better of me again. I'll try to keep the faith. Don't stop believin' eh.... Wonderful post that succinctly describes the current state of play. As for worries about the public finances; rehabilitation is expensive whether it works or not. Rope is cheap and very effective. >Rope is cheap and very effective. My concern is the legal process which determines the recipient of the sentence. And if you were on the jury, could you be certain "beyond all reasonable doubt" considering you know you will be part responsible for that persons execution? Police have been known to make mistakes; genuine errors are regrettable. And they have been know to tell lies. John Charles Menezes was said to have "vaulted the ticket barrier and ran off into the Underground when approached by Police". When in fact he had used his Oyster Card to legitimately gain access to the transport facility. Sir Ian Blair was complicit in the killing. An overly simplistic 'documentary', but worthy of consideration all the same. TBT. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
manxy Posted November 9, 2014 Share Posted November 9, 2014 Post 12 by Wrighty partly sums it up for me. Being unqualified to say what the best way of dealing with the killer is, I've therefore used this link from Psychology Today because they comment on treated and cured. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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