Our slave shame

[The Sick Moon]

It's not my "slave shame" either. Not when women have been enslaved for centuries and treated as chattel and still are in many regions.

 

This is currently stil happening and is of far more importance and relevance to everyone than the ancient old slave trade.

 

Yeah! Now put the kettle on love.

[manxman1980]

Reading that it is not "our slave shame" because someone else did it first or because someone in the world is still doing it now does not make the UK's involvement in the slave trade any better.

 

I take the point though that the history of the British slave trade would be better taught in the context of global activities and that the impact on the present day should also be considered. Why, when the historical slave trade is so roundly criticised and recognised as a dark part of our history, does slavery continue to be an issue today? In particular human traffiking.

[ScotsAlan]

I've never owned a slave, so it's not 'OUR slave shame'.

 

I agree that 'we' should stop looking for reasons to castigate ourselves and look to the repressive regimes and human traffickers who still operate globally and with apparent impunity.

 

First up... I admit I did not see the program. But I disagree with you. Hear me out. My arguement is based on what I have read about the slave trade.

 

We all benefited from it. The money built schools, hospitals, libraries... the money went everywhere. It put the G into GB.

 

To invoke Goodwins, we British have as much a shared shame over the slave trade as the Germans had to shoulder after WW2. Not every German of the time was gassing people, but Germany as a Nation shared in the guilt.

 

And to compare slavery of the past with modern day trafficing is just plain daft. When we were doing slavery it was on an industrial scale. Governments were involved, there was nobody there to help the people kidnapped into slavery. It was a massive industry. Warships were deployed to protect the routes, plantations were funded by share issue. It was a totally legal enslavement of people for profit. The victims had no recourse to any sort of justice. They were branded as subhuman.

 

Compare that to the cattle wagons taking the victims to the gas chambers.

 

Not a lot different. So why should Germans have to have a shared shame for the actions of their ancestors when we dont?

 

White people have white previledge because of what happened in those days. Governments and slave owners used every trick in the book to justify their actions. They used the bible, they used science, they done everything they could to prove that white people were above black people.

 

This is our shame. The legacy of the justification. Too many bigots still do not believe in equality. Black people did not make white people racist. White people done that to themselfs to justify the enslavement of black people.

 

White people invented racism to make money. This is why I feel ashamed.

 

(edited-spelling)

 

[spook]

What a load of tripe.

 

To start with to hang blame on the Germans of today for what SOME of the germs n's, and others did, at a time when the majority of German people were even born is stupid wrong and offensive to German people everywhere.

 

But staying with that comparison, the Nazis were intent not on enslaving the jew, their intent was genocide.

[the stinking enigma]

would it be acceptable to end people trafficing today by paying the "owners" compensation for loss of their slaves?

[woolley]

 

I've never owned a slave, so it's not 'OUR slave shame'.

 

I agree that 'we' should stop looking for reasons to castigate ourselves and look to the repressive regimes and human traffickers who still operate globally and with apparent impunity.

 

First up... I admit I did not see the program. But I disagree with you. Hear me out. My arguement is based on what I have read about the slave trade.

I

We all benefited from it. The money built schools, hospitals, libraries... the money went everywhere. It put the G into GB.

 

To invoke Goodwins, we British have as much a shared shame over the slave trade as the Germans had to shoulder after WW2. Not every German of the time was gassing people, but Germany as a Nation shared in the guilt.

 

And to compare slavery of the past with modern day trafficing is just plain daft. When we were doing slavery it was on an industrial scale. Governments were involved, there was nobody there to help the people kidnapped into slavery. It was a massive industry. Warships were deployed to protect the routes, plantations were funded by share issue. It was a totally legal enslavement of people for profit. The victims had no recourse to any sort of justice. They were branded as subhuman.

 

Compare that to the cattle wagons taking the victims to the gas chambers.

 

Not a lot different. So why should Germans have to have a shared shame for the actions of their ancestors when we dont?

 

White people have white previledge because of what happened in those days. Governments and slave owners used every trick in the book to justify their actions. They used the bible, they used science, they done everything they could to prove that white people were above black people.

 

This is our shame. The legacy of the justification. Too many bigots still do not believe in equality. Black people did not make white people racist. White people done that to themselfs to justify the enslavement of black people.

 

White people invented racism to make money. This is why I feel ashamed.

 

(edited-spelling)

 

 

More bleeding heart claptrap. Do you truly believe that or are you trying to provoke a response? You are absolutely correct in that Britain benefited form slaving and appropriating resources around the world, but we also gave a huge amount to the Empire too. And, incidentally, there were plenty of our forefathers up to less than a couple of hundred years ago living in virtual slavery in Britain itself.

 

You can feel as ashamed as you like. Me? I am pleased that our ancestors went around the world and did what they did because it gave us the nice comfy life we have had. Would you prefer it the other way round with us living in some shit hole to salve your conscience? That's human nature. You're either king of the castle or you're the dirty rascal. We've been kings of the castle for a long time and I'd rather be there than the one under the thumb of somebody else. Sadly, because of attitudes like those you and those in power nowadays are displaying, our star has fallen and other stronger, meaner forces will eventually take over since we have gone all soft. Always happens. Ancient Greeks, Romans, Ottomans et al. White people did not invent racism. People from different places and of different types have always fought each other for the upper hand and what's more, they always will. Forget your shame; get some pride.

[Vulgarian]

White people invented racism to make money. This is why I feel ashamed.

 

I cannot agree with that. Racism is as old as human societies. It is not an exclusively white problem. It didn't spring up when white europeans began exploiting black africans for profit. If circumstances had been otherwise and black africans had been in a position to exploit white europeans they would have done so.

 

Your shame is understandable but I wonder is a personally felt shame or a more intellectualised regret at the actions of people in the past and their continued effects? You presumably didn't take part in the slave trade yourself so you have no reason to feel a personal guilt.

 

We don't inherit the sins of our ancestors, or people who used to live in the same geographic area as we currently do. I don't feel any personal shame about slavery. I took no part in it. I am not culpable for things that happened before I was born.

 

But we do inherit the society, ideas, institutions, language etc. of the people of the past. We should recognise this and do what we reasonably can to repair the damage that was done, and make right the wrongs that were done.

 

There is an unfortunate conflation of the two previous notions. As well as being charged with making restitution for our society's previous wrongs there is a widespread idea that we are somehow also guilty of them. That we should be personally sorry for what was done. The troublesome idea here is blame, which is the first thing people seek when a perceived wrong has been done. The next thing they look for is punishment. That's our natural response, the traditional notion of crime and punishment and it seems to be able to jump generation boundaries! Its not a helpful or sensible thing to believe in.

[ScotsAlan]

Yup. I am a bleeding heart liberal. I have no problem with being called that.

 

Lots of good points have come back at me. No. I am not talking about making restitutions. As many of you say, how can we be held accountable for the actions of our previous generations. I agree.

 

But I believe we need to accept that what they done was wrong.

 

Staying with Goowins, let me try another arguement: Flags.

 

So, if you were to put a Nazi flag sticker on your car bumper and drive around the island, would you expect to be challanged about it? Probably. If you hung a Nazi flag in your garden, you would most likely expect a few people to protest.

 

Indeed, there are many countries in the world where you would end up in jail. Going further, if you were to post holocaust denials online in many countries, you would end up doing time for that.

 

This is an infringement of our right to free speach is it not. Think about what it means.... you can go to jail for having an opinion.

 

But we don't complain about this. We accept it. We have total freedom of speach, but we don't mind certain bits being banned.

 

Now, put a confederate war flag sticker on your car bumper, or hang one in your garden. Nobody will bat an eyelid. At most you might be dismissed as quirky. Shave your head, put on your doc matens and go out with a nazi flag tee shirt... "look at that Nazi scum". Keep the shaven head and boots, but go out with a confederate battle flag tee-shirt.... "there goes a quirky guy".

 

See my point? Both flags are symbols of oppression. One is looked on with disgust, the other is seen as a redneck symbol.

 

I have been following the American news about the confederate flag with interest. After the recent Church shootings the symbolism of the flag is being recognised. And it is being taken down. Now, many people will say the flag is not about racism and slavery... it's about being anti lefty liberal big nanny state Government. Well, yes, you could say that. But look at the facts. That particular flag was forgotton about after the American civil war. It was resurrected in the 50's and 60's by the Southern States in defience of new laws the federal Government were introducing... yup... the feds were banning racial segregation. It is a racist flag

 

My point is then:

 

Nazis.flying their Nazi flags.. nasty buggers. Lets ban them.

 

Racists: Flying their confederate flag... yeah... well.. what can you do... freedom of speach and all that.

 

You see, I am not saying all white people get down on their knees and grovel an apology for what our ancestors done. But what I would like is for the sybols and attitudes of that era to be treated with the same disdain as we treat other episodes of our history.

 

As a collective, we unite with the holocaust victims. We remember the victims and all accept it was a bad thing.

 

With slavery, the flag waving bigots live amongst us, waving their flags in peoples faces with impunity. Freedom of speach... yup.

[ScotsAlan]

 

 

Blah blah

 

Blah blah blah

 

Blah blah........ Forget your shame; get some pride.

 

 

Sorry, I heavily edited the quotes to avoid bloat quote. I think editing quotes is against T&Cs... anyway.

 

Get pride in what ?

 

Pride in Empire? Be proud that the coutry I hail from rode roughshod over the globe in warships taking whatever they wanted?

 

So next time I am in the bar talking to the Malaysian guy I drink with, what do I say to display my pride?

 

Me: " Of course, you guys were savages till we came in and took over. You should be grateful for what we done dude. We saved you from yourselfs.. we taught you, we gave you law.... whats that?.. Oh, your dad died in Malaysian war of independence? No dude, it was not a war. It was an emergency. It was not a war because the plantations owners would have lost their insurance cover if it was declared a war. Yup yup... hey dude... don't get angry with me... we defeated the Japanese for you. We drove the Japanese out of your country... What?.. what's that you say?... Yes, of course we stayed after we forced the Japanese out. We fought for it. We won. We deserved to keep it."

 

Him: " I hope you feel proud of yourself"

 

Me: " Hell yes I feel proud. But these bleeding heart liberals. If it wern't for them we would still rule the world"

 

Nope. I don't think that conversation would go down too well, so I don't think I will try it.

 

In fact, off on another tangent. I visited a Chinese 1911 Revolution Museum on Sunday. Ok, so the Chinese establishment is not exactly famed for telling history accurately, but I would say a good 20% of the museum was dedicated to the agression of foreign powers against China, the biggest aggressor being Great Britain.

 

Dude, let me tell you, if I had stood in the middle of that museum, my heart bursting with pride, and decided climb a display and launch into an impromtu rendition of "Rule Brittannia" in my booming tenor voice.... it would not have gone down well.

 

But let me tell you... next time I am down the British club, playing a few rubbers of bridge, drinking Singapore slings, I certainly will be having a good chat about the glory days of our Empire. Blooming foreigners... don't know what's good for them.

 

So please, don't take offence in me not being "proud" .

 

Edit to add:

 

So. Woolley says I should be proud of my ancestors. So why should I be able to be proud of them for the "good" (open to interpretation) things they done, but not be allowed to feel shame for the "bad" things they done?

 

What is it to be? Selective ancestral memory, cherry pick the "good" bits and sweep the "bad" bits under the carpet? It's ok to have collective pride but not collective guilt?

 

I prefer to feel pride in the good bits, and shame for the bad bits. Is that ok with you?

[woolley]

You're overthinking it Alan, and I believe that this is why great empires wither and die. They come to hate themselves. I do give you much credit for at least recognising that the comforts we have today came from the activities of our ancestors. Most people beating themselves up about our history seem to have a mental disconnect there and think that their cushy life fell from the heavens. And don't be too dismissive of the wrongs done to the British lower classes down the centuries by the elite. They paid a high price too for our present. Many of the people from around the empire seem extremely happy to embrace British citizenship and life among us in Britain. I am not sure that would have been the case in a victorious Nazi Germany!

 

"Let us therefore brace ourselves to our duties, and so bear ourselves, that if the British Empire and its Commonwealth last for a thousand years, men will still say, This was their finest hour."

 

Here we are less than 80 years later with a liberal elite and a brainwashed young ashamed of everything we ever stood for. Very sad.

[Vulgarian]

I know what your saying, Alan. And I know what you're getting at with the comparison between nazi and confederate symbols, but they are different in some important ways that make the comparison less apt. The nazi flag is unequivocally associated with naziism and the policies of the nazi regime which included the extermination of the jewry. People from both sides understand its symbolism in roughly the same way.

 

The confederate flag means different things to different people. To many white southerners it means state rights, independence, and stands as a tangible symbol of their identity. Many of them (though not all) would be puzzled by suggestions that it stands for slavery and racism. Many black people naturally see it the otherwise. Both views exist and are understandable. Broadly two different understandings of the same symbol have evolved.

 

The danger with suppressing people's views through law is something we all understand. I wouldn't want to ban the confederate flag, but make people more aware that others hold different ideas about what it means and try to bring about some understanding of the offence that it can cause others, and the problems with it.

[spook]

edited out

[spook]

Britain became great not because of slavery but because of trade and the British working class who were the ones that slaved. Slaved in awful working and living conditions to provide the manufactured goods that the world demanded and were willing to pay to get.

 

Then there's the Brits who slaved in horrible countries to bring civilisation to parts of the world that had previously been living in tribal savagery and that when independence was returned to them along with schools, hospitals, physical infrastructures such as railways and other means to move goods to and from ports so that trade could be conducted, and a society based on law and democracy.

 

And that when left with all that returned to tribal savagery once left to their own devices.

 

Britain did not thrive because of slavery, that's just nonsense. Britain thrived by the blood and sweat of the British workers.

[woolley]

 

Britain did not thrive because of slavery, that's just nonsense. Britain thrived by the blood and sweat of the British workers.

And a "can do, will do" attitude around the world that has now been replaced by "can't be arsed". Welfare state, anyone?

[the stinking enigma]

Yes these lazy welfare claimants should get themselves a couple of slaves to earn them their fortunes whilst they are off shooting big game