Zimbabwe Begins Destroying Vegetable Gardens

[Rog]

"Segregation was enforced rigorously everywhere.  Visiting the country in 1955 (Southern Rhodesia, now Zimbabwe) Sir Hugh Greene encountered Sir Godfrey Huggins, then the Federation's Prime Minister, who told him that white and black MPs were forbidden to dine together at Parliament House. Nothing had changed since the time of Rhodes and Jameson. A factory manager told Greene that:

I had a friend from Northern Rhodesia down here the other day who said what a relief it was to see a really good flogging again."

 

From The Rise and Fall of the British Empire, Lawrence James, 1994 p.612

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So what? Though the law was often implemented in a cruel and disproportionate way there is much to be said in favour of apartheid as a stage through which a nation should pass during its being dragged into the modern age.

[the-rhymes]

So what?  Though the law was often implemented in a cruel and disproportionate way  there is much to be said in favour of apartheid as a stage through which a nation should pass during its being dragged into the modern age.

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Such as?

 

Do unto others as you would have them do unto you...

[P.K.]

So what?  Though the law was often implemented in a cruel and disproportionate way  there is much to be said in favour of apartheid as a stage through which a nation should pass during its being dragged into the modern age.

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Such as?

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Do your own research. I would suggest a quick look at the SA crime figures pre and post independence might be a good place to start.

[Lonan3]

I would suggest that a look at what was considered to be a crime pre and post independence might be a an even better place to start.

[the-rhymes]

Do your own research. I would suggest a quick look at the SA crime figures pre and post independence might be a good place to start.

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No tell me. If you make a point it should be backed up.

 

And I haven't seen a more offensive pile of dog dirt for ages... What about the moral crimes committed by the SA government. Just because some judge say's something is against the law doesn't mean its wrong...

 

You can't sit here because you are black.

You can't go on this beach because you are black.

You can't have this job because you are black.

You can't live here because you are black.

 

If you keep people down then at some point they are going to explode. The chickens are coming home to roost.

 

Mugabe is perpetrating the same sort of moral crimes as the SA Government did for years.

[Rog]

Do your own research. I would suggest a quick look at the SA crime figures pre and post independence might be a good place to start.

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No tell me. If you make a point it should be backed up.

 

And I haven't seen a more offensive pile of dog dirt for ages... What about the moral crimes committed by the SA government. Just because some judge say's something is against the law doesn't mean its wrong...

 

You can't sit here because you are black.

You can't go on this beach because you are black.

You can't have this job because you are black.

You can't live here because you are black.

 

 

If you keep people down then at some point they are going to explode. The chickens are coming home to roost.

 

Mugabe is perpetrating the same sort of moral crimes as the SA Government did for years.

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Don't forget ---

 

You can't sit here because you are white.

You can't go on this beach because you are white.

You can't have this job because you are white.

You can't live here because you are white.

 

Was applied just as strongly.

 

Apartheid meant livingf apart. Seperate. Nothing at all wrong with that. There are many peopel who prefer the company and association of their own kind. That is why people buy houses in particular areas, join particlar clubs, associate with a particular class of people and so on.

 

When a nation comprises of socially diverse communties such as in Africa between the vlacks and the white people to have laws that keep one from the other benefits both communities and pfurther rovides safeguards to both communities from each other.

 

Mugabe? He is simply doing what African tribal leaders have done for thousands of years. Nothing more.

[the-rhymes]

Which community had all the wealth? Who had the best schools, jobs and farmland?

 

It was hardly a fair system. This will give people an idea of population breakdown of SA...

 

Ethnic groups 2005 from the CIA world fact book:

 

black 75.2%, white 13.6%, Colored 8.6%, Indian 2.6%

 

from here:

http://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/factbook/geos/sf.html

 

Good informative link on Apartheid in SA:

 

http://www.crf-usa.org/bria/bria12_2.html

 

One of the things I really admire about SA is the Truth and Reconciliation Commission...

 

I disagree with social separation, I don't even particularly think children should go to different religious schools. Different lessions regarding religon maybe but maths is maths... I believe that if people celebrate their differences yet live together then we would gain a better understanding of each other. Call me a hippy if you like but I have personally seen my theory win again and again.

 

I have a lot's of friends (I mean best mates not I people I've met a few times) from different backgrounds perhaps if other people had wider social circles they would also be less bigoted, black, white, orange or green.

 

As for what African tribal leaders have done, you can apply it to 20 century European leaders, ancient Roman emperors and soviet and American presidents. No race has a complete moral high ground, we all need to eat a bit of humble pie.

 

Edited to fix mistake...

[Rog]

So for tens of thousands of years African ‘culture’ just managed to produce a better bow and arrow.

 

Along came the White Man and brought cities, healthcare, social structure based not on tribalism but civilisation, in short, the modern world.

 

The White man left. Does the progress that was ‘jump started’ continue?

 

Hardly, in fact simply a reversion back to what they were hoist out from – tribal brutality and worse. Take the case of Nigeria alone – Nigeria's black ‘rulers’ have already stolen £220,000,000,000. Two HUNDRED and twenty BILLION pounds in 40 years.

 

After that mass theft, two thirds of the country's 130 million people - one in seven of the total African population - live in abject poverty, a third is illiterate and 40 per cent have no safe water supply.

 

The stolen fortune tallies almost exactly with the £220 billion of Western aid given to Africa between 1960 and 1997.

 

That amounted to six times the American help given to post-war Europe under the Marshall Plan.

 

British aid for Africa totaled £720 million last year. If that sum was spent annually for the next three centuries, it would only just cover the cost of Nigeria's looting by their black leaders. Such actions are endemic with African tribalism.

 

One man alone, Gen Sani Abacha, the late military dictator, stole between £1 billion and £3 billion during his five-year rule.

 

I wonder how much of that as well as the rest of the £220 billion has found its way to coffers on the Isle of Man.

 

Sources --. http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml...xportaltop.html

[the-rhymes]

I do not disagree with you regarding the rampant corruption in Africa. I think what is happening in Zimbabwe is terrible and the crime rate in SA is sickening... I am not an apologist or supremacists of any kind.

 

I am willing to listen to reason are you? Can you not see that Apartide was and is just plain wrong? Crime rates, corruption, greed and violence are never justification for inequality and cruelty. Granted the empire and apartide were products of their time but that time has passed.

 

I simply can not see how someone can justify apartheid be that Marcus Garvey or the KKK...

 

I would also like too think that the Zimbabwean situation will improve with a united opposition. An opposition that contains both blacks and whites, in a similar manner to the ANC.

 

The old fascist SA government did next to nothing to educate or help the majority of people. They repressed, degraded and stole just as the British Empire did! I do applaud the British abolitionists, the navy that stopped slave ships and the early black British people such as Olaudah Equiano who most eloquently wrote about the slave trade:

 

http://www.brycchancarey.com/equiano/

 

For anyone interested here are some sites regarding pre colonial African civilisations:

 

http://users.vnet.net/alight/aksum/mhak1.html

 

http://www.bbc.co.uk/worldservice/africa/f...3chapter4.shtml

 

http://www.safrica.info/ess_info/sa_glance.../mapungubwe.htm

 

http://www.culturekiosque.com/art/exhibiti/rhesouda.htm

 

http://www.wsu.edu:8080/~dee/CIVAFRCA/FOREST.HTM

 

I think I have covered north, east, south and west African civilisations... And I know that some of the above did bad things but what civilisation hasn't!

 

I do not have the time to continue this at the moment. I don't think that I have changed your mind but I do hope that you acknowledge the fact that Africans had civilisation before europe did...

[Rog]

Can you not see that Apartide was and is just plain wrong?

 

No. The problem was when apartheit was abused. there s NOTHING fundementally wrong with the concept of living seperatly especially during the social upheavel of attempting to modernise a primitave people.

I do not have the time to continue this at the moment. I don't think that I have changed your mind but I do hope that you acknowledge the fact that Africans had civilisation before europe did...

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Africa most certainly did NOT have civilisation befiore Europe. Civilisation started in Iraq if it can be said to have started anywhere though in my opinion the closest to modern civilisation started in China.

[the-rhymes]

So do we have an agreement that apartheid (good or bad) was definitely abused in SA? I acknowledge that you said it was sometimes cruel earlier (I think).

 

I will always consider apartheid evil and you have your views. I would not force people to live together or apart I simple believe in personal choice for everybody.

 

As far as civilisation goes I again do not disagree about Mesopotamia or China. That said Egypt is in Africa is it not?

 

http://www.wwnorton.com/college/history/wo...nc/wrldtime.htm

 

Moving south what about Kush, Nubia & Kerma?

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kush

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nubia

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kingdom_of_Kerma

 

 

Minoans & Mycenaean civilisations which can be taken as the start of Greek civilisation dates to around 3000 BC & 1600 BC respectivly. Egypt 3200 BC, Kerma 2600 BC.

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ancient_Greece

 

I might be wrong but isn't Greece supposed to be the cradle of European civilisation?

 

Edited to add the Minoan date and Alter Egypts...

[Rog]

So do we have an agreement that apartheid (good or bad) was definitely abused in SA? I acknowledge that you said it was sometimes cruel earlier (I think).

 

Absolitely YES.

 

I agree. It was a great idea that was corupted.

 

More tommorow!

[La_Dolce_Vita]

Oh my god! A return to imperialism and the talk of the merits of apartheid.

Rog, Africa seems to bring out the racist imperialist in you. Are you sure your not Cecil Rhodes or Benjamin Disraeli brought back from the dead?

[thebees]

I wonder if it was wrong for the British to leave Africa as quickly as they did?

The situation is dire, I remember people holidaying in Zimbabwe (you probably still can, I don't think I would want to go there though.). He won't live forever though.

[Tempus Fugit]

Just been reading this thread which seems to have started some time ago.

 

I don't see any mention of Ian Smith and UDI in all this,

didn't they (Rhodesians) decide for themseves that they didn't want to have any further contact with GB and jumped ship ?.

 

What I can't understand is why after such a long time Mugabe still rants and raves about GB (apart from just being 'Mad Bob') and seems to think GB still has some sort of responsibility for what he is doing.