pongo Posted November 28, 2015 Share Posted November 28, 2015 I think what some of you aren't getting is that Western civilisation is being attacked here, and Britain needs to stand up and be counted with her allies. Who could watch the scenes of grieving in France and somehow think it's nothing to do with us ? I agree with all of that. But I am pessimistic that there is a pragmatic plan. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr. Sausages Posted November 28, 2015 Share Posted November 28, 2015 We could see atrocities in London tomorrow and then everyone would flip their opinion. Already happened a few times, carried out by Britons. And when it happens again, my money is on it being carried out by Britons. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
P.K. Posted November 28, 2015 Share Posted November 28, 2015 I agree with all of that. But I am pessimistic that there is a pragmatic plan. Why does any plan have to be pragmatic - just because you say so...? Personally I would forget any endgame until IS has been totally destroyed. Although my own opinion is that Syria as a state is probably beyond it's use by date. But that's just a bit too far in the future right now to worry about. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Padhasapa Posted November 28, 2015 Share Posted November 28, 2015 It is a reasonable proposition to query what really fomented the civil war considering that the Assad dynasty has ruled Syria for almost half a century without before resorting to killing the population. How accurate is the Western accepted version of events? Assad constantly exploited ethnic and sectarian tensions to bolster his tribal power base. He was returned twice, in 2000 and 2007, unopposed because most of any credible opposition were either dead or discredited. He is undoubtedly a war criminal in the eyes of many. An accurate description of the suffering of the Syrian people is evident on the wiki page dedicated to him. It also explains the influence of his extended family who've violently held power for generations. Let's discuss the facts on the ground. What is your alternative to Bashar al-Assad? You may be right, Quilp, but if he is a war criminal, so is Tony Blair, George Bush, David Cameron, Barack Obama, and the Syrian opposition groups. They're all engaged in war crimes. War IS a crime. The question is, which war criminal is the least harmful to the Syrian people? I believe that is Assad and the Baath Party who have maintained power for decades and kept the country together and kept peaceful relations with us are least harmful. Better the devil you know. Look what has happened in other countries where we ousted democratically elected leaders. We overthrew Mohammad Mosaddegh in Iran because he beleived in nationalisation of Iran's resources, we put in the Shah, and then the Iranian Revolution happened. We turned a democracy into a theocracy. I don't want that same mistake to happen in Syria. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
P.K. Posted November 28, 2015 Share Posted November 28, 2015 So go and join the YPG... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Padhasapa Posted November 28, 2015 Share Posted November 28, 2015 I think what some of you aren't getting is that Western civilisation is being attacked here, and Britain needs to stand up and be counted with her allies. Who could watch the scenes of grieving in France and somehow think it's nothing to do with us ? How fine they looked too; a nation coming together, albeit in grief. We could see atrocities in London tomorrow and then everyone would flip their opinion. I wouldn't be listening to any Hampstead liberals or Jeremy Corbyn and his slimeball mate Livingstone either. It's a joke to watch some of these cosy metropolitan politicians throwing in their opinions when they know absolutely f**k all. It's a dangerous, complex situation, and I'd be listening to the generals and the military, rather than sit on our hands waiting for 'the right conditions' until we're dragged by events into it anyway. If western civilisation is being attacked, it is from within. Thankfully the majority of British people appear to have woken up and started voting for the Conservative Party. I hope there is never another Labour government so long as I live. Labour, especially that despicable excuse for a human being Jeremy Corbyn, should be thrown out of Britain and made to go live in Saudi Arabia or China where they belong. If that man is ever elected Prime Minister, I will be emigrating. I hope people aren't that stupid. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Padhasapa Posted November 28, 2015 Share Posted November 28, 2015 So go and join the YPG... Your sarcasm is noted. I wish our government did ally with the Kurds and promised them a state. In that scenaro, I would give serious thought to volunteering to help them. They're a persecuted minority who deserve better. A newly formed Kurdistan would be a great step forward to bringing peace and moderation to the Middle East. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pongo Posted November 28, 2015 Share Posted November 28, 2015 Why does any plan have to be pragmatic adjective: pragmatic prag·mat·ic praɡˈmadik/ dealing with things sensibly and realistically in a way that is based on practical rather than theoretical considerations antonyms: idealistic excited impractical inefficient irrational unrealistic unreasonable Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
P.K. Posted November 28, 2015 Share Posted November 28, 2015 Why does any plan have to be pragmaticadjective: pragmaticprag·mat·icpraɡˈmadik/dealing with things sensibly and realistically in a way that is based on practical rather than theoretical considerationsantonyms:idealistic excited impractical inefficient irrational unrealistic unreasonable I know what it means so your point is...? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pongo Posted November 28, 2015 Share Posted November 28, 2015 so your point is...? That I am not convinced that there actually is a pragmatic plan to defeat IS. I want there to be. I hope that there is. But I am pessimistic. As I wrote. It's not a statement you can make an argument out of. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shake me up Judy Posted November 28, 2015 Share Posted November 28, 2015 Sometimes you've just got to get on with it. You can't sit around waiting for all your ducks to line up in a row. We didn't have a plan to defeat the Germans in two world wars or a plan to clear the Argentinians from the Falklands. We just rolled our sleeves up and got stuck in. The plan was made up afterwards by the historians. We sat around for years wringing our hands over the Bosnian crisis and look what happened while we waited. We're not putting soldiers in here but we need to at the very least offer air support if the military think it can be effective. Above all we need to be a reliable ally when the times call for it. Britain used to mean something and stand for something. It doesn't look like we're much of anything these days. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
anaghcoarite Posted November 28, 2015 Share Posted November 28, 2015 It matters not what Assad has or has not done in the past, it is none of our business, who are the chicken hawk western leaders to decide on who stays and who goes. Assad has a lot of support in Syria, far higher public opinion than the homosexual in the White house and Dave, Prior to the french attacks Hollandes approval rating was around 10%, Assad's is several times more than that, I would also suggest to these western leaders to leave children and animals alone when partaking in sex.. I wonder if these reports are as accurate as prior to the Iraq invasion that Saddams soldiers were pulling premature babies out of incubators and other atrocities that were then proven to be total fabrication and western lies, again to swing the very fecking fickle crowd here......I am amazed on the memory of some people that they cannot see history repeating itself again and again. Be honest with yourself's this is nothing to do with getting rid of ISIS to protect Britain from Faux Terror Attacks, its about removing another elected leader to then be replaced by a puppet that is controlled by the west and also to put into place another Red shield central bank... Then after this plan has been carried out you will all be talking about evil Iran and the tape recording will pay all over again and the sheep will follow as per usual.. 1. Create a baddie 2. Scare the sheep 3. Get your controlled media (all of it) to spread the lies 4. Illegally Bomb a sovereign country that is no threat to you, and total destabilize a country to save the innocents by killing most of them and those you don't kill wont have a pot left to piss in..(what a fecking joke) 5. Install your own despot and western banking system. 6. Financially ruin them by lending them money to rebuild the country that you destroyed to save them in the first place.. 7. change country and repeat go to step 1. (IRAN IS NEXT) These western leaders of yours should be on trial in the Hague for war crimes against humanity and publicly executed, That is one event I will not be missing if the idiots wake up and it finally happens,. The MO has been repeating itself for years, wake up before it is too late. Stop financing these psychopaths to murder and destroy peoples lives. ^^^^ What he said! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
P.K. Posted November 28, 2015 Share Posted November 28, 2015 That I am not convinced that there actually is a pragmatic plan to defeat IS. I want there to be. I hope that there is. But I am pessimistic. As I wrote.It's not a statement you can make an argument out of. So what...? A pragmatic plan, what's that? A plan that somehow takes in all the outcomes all the vested interests want to see? What planet are you on - can you see Planet Earth from up there? The more resources thrown at degrading IS the better. Irrespective of their motives. Once IS are destroyed then that's the time for pragmatism. Dear me... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pongo Posted November 28, 2015 Share Posted November 28, 2015 The more resources thrown at degrading IS the better. One of the ifs would be around the question of whether yet more air power can actually succeed in sufficiently degrading IS. I am in favour of Britain supporting her allies. I would support the British govt in seeking approval for action. But I am not convinced that more of the same is going to significantly change the situation. I hope it does but am pessimistic. What planet are you on - can you see Planet Earth from up there? You seem to be looking to win an argument rather having than a conversation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
anaghcoarite Posted November 28, 2015 Share Posted November 28, 2015 That I am not convinced that there actually is a pragmatic plan to defeat IS. I want there to be. I hope that there is. But I am pessimistic. As I wrote.It's not a statement you can make an argument out of. So what...? A pragmatic plan, what's that? A plan that somehow takes in all the outcomes all the vested interests want to see? What planet are you on - can you see Planet Earth from up there? The more resources thrown at degrading IS the better. Irrespective of their motives. Once IS are destroyed then that's the time for pragmatism. Dear me... Oh dear, looks like someone's been reading newspapers and watching the news before arriving at "his" opinion............. Just how do you figure out who is IS and who is a legitimate Syrian opposition force? Or should we just bomb the whole lot, after all they're olive skinned and Middle Eastern so their lives are not as important as ours? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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