Lxxx Posted December 4, 2015 Share Posted December 4, 2015 Must. Get. That. Gas. Pipeline. From. Qatar. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the stinking enigma Posted December 4, 2015 Share Posted December 4, 2015 http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-34982154 Difficult to find an emotive quote from Dave on this, having said that I must admit I haven't looked Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr. Sausages Posted December 4, 2015 Share Posted December 4, 2015 He's bombing ISIS for copyright infringement of Saudi Arabia's killing policy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
notwell Posted December 4, 2015 Share Posted December 4, 2015 I just find it a little difficult to understand how bombing Syria is going to stop terrorists already in the west from committing attrocities over here, also why bombing moderates in the West's families back home is not going to radicalise them in some way, but its not really about Syria thommo. Assad not really mentioned yet, he will be soon, then there's the upcoming so good for business arms race with Russia which is also well underway We're not bombing Syria. There is no longer a distinction between Syria and Iraq due to the border disappearing in chaos. We're targetting ISIS. Assad is, to my knowledge, not going to be a target of this stage of bombings. It is specifically directed at ISIS. As Hilary Benn said, this has been effective in helping the regional players to keep ISIS from taking over further areas. Bombing ISIS won't stop terrorists already in the west. It is to stop them terrorising the people of Iraq and Syria. Who said anything about bombing moderates? ISIS are not moderates. Nobody is talking about randombly bombing places in Syria. It's going to be coordinated against ISIS. If anyone was going to be radicalised, more bombing is not going to add to anything. The radicalisation has been going on for decades thanks to Saudi Arabia exporting Wahabiism and would happen with or without bombing. Wahabiism is not a reaction to western involvement in the middle east. It goes back further than that. Also keep in mind that their number one agenda is to terrorise ordinary Muslims in the region. This isn't all about Britain and protecting British people, it's about our international obligation to stand up against the evil being inflicted on ordinary Muslims and Christians in the region who are being terrorised by these thugs. The tree hugging brigade won't like the above. We should just be giving them a big cuddle. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lxxx Posted December 4, 2015 Share Posted December 4, 2015 I just find it a little difficult to understand how bombing Syria is going to stop terrorists already in the west from committing attrocities over here, also why bombing moderates in the West's families back home is not going to radicalise them in some way, but its not really about Syria thommo. Assad not really mentioned yet, he will be soon, then there's the upcoming so good for business arms race with Russia which is also well underway We're not bombing Syria. There is no longer a distinction between Syria and Iraq due to the border disappearing in chaos. We're targetting ISIS. Assad is, to my knowledge, not going to be a target of this stage of bombings. It is specifically directed at ISIS. As Hilary Benn said, this has been effective in helping the regional players to keep ISIS from taking over further areas. Bombing ISIS won't stop terrorists already in the west. It is to stop them terrorising the people of Iraq and Syria. Who said anything about bombing moderates? ISIS are not moderates. Nobody is talking about randombly bombing places in Syria. It's going to be coordinated against ISIS. If anyone was going to be radicalised, more bombing is not going to add to anything. The radicalisation has been going on for decades thanks to Saudi Arabia exporting Wahabiism and would happen with or without bombing. Wahabiism is not a reaction to western involvement in the middle east. It goes back further than that. Also keep in mind that their number one agenda is to terrorise ordinary Muslims in the region. This isn't all about Britain and protecting British people, it's about our international obligation to stand up against the evil being inflicted on ordinary Muslims and Christians in the region who are being terrorised by these thugs. However seeing as Turkey is the No 1 beneficiary of the oil that ISIS are trafficking across the border from their well organised oil refining and distribution network, ergo financing ISIS, why aren't we taking the fight to our NATO ally? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chinahand Posted December 4, 2015 Author Share Posted December 4, 2015 I don't think that picture is totally accurate, but do you have any evidence to back it up? Anyone got any links to the daily output of the ISIS controlled fields and the amount believed to being smuggled into Turkey? I've only the FT articles, I've linked to before. My understanding is that only a small proportion of the oil (and petroleum products from it being refined) leave ISIS controlled areas - it is used to fuel cars and generators in the thousands of homes, towns and cities ISIS controls. Those areas contain millions of people and they are the captive market for ISIS. I'm not saying there is no smuggling - just that it is marginal compared to local use. My understanding is that the stuff coming out of ISIS areas is poor quality, badly refined, and in small tankers or even gerry cans; there is money to be made selling it, and no doubt smugglers do, but most of it is used locally. I'm totally prepared to be shown to be wrong - but can any one show that exports are a significant percentage of ISIS's production. I suspect it is only a small proportion which gets smuggled into Turkey, for a similar use - it is for local generators and diesels. Certainly people can get very rich doing this, but ISIS basically only controls the well head and the refinery - after that it is middle men and smugglers - though I'm sure many of them work for ISIS which will try to get its cut - corruption goes both ways, and ISIS can happily use violence too. Journalism can miss the complete picture by only concentrating on the bits getting all the attention. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr. Sausages Posted December 4, 2015 Share Posted December 4, 2015 I imagine hard evidence will be hard to come by - can't see ISIS welcoming a team of auditors to carry out field work. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chinahand Posted December 4, 2015 Author Share Posted December 4, 2015 This paper tries to put things in context: [Exports from Turkey's export terminal in]...Ceyhan, exceed the mark of one million barrels per day. Putting this number into context ... ISIS has never been able to trade daily more than 45,000 barrels of oil. An lot of those barrels of oil will be used locally - but even if none of it was and all of it went through Ceyhan (and that isn't the only export terminal Turkey has) then it would make up less than 5%. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lxxx Posted December 4, 2015 Share Posted December 4, 2015 http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/russia-releases-proof-turkey-is-smuggling-isis-oil-over-its-border-a6757651.html http://finance.yahoo.com/news/putin-strikes-back-erdo-russia-183500453.html Depends whether you think official satellite imagery from a state defence department are more reputable than an article in the Financial Times though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the stinking enigma Posted December 4, 2015 Share Posted December 4, 2015 http://archive.larouchepac.com/node/31250 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cassie Posted December 4, 2015 Share Posted December 4, 2015 Deleted Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chinahand Posted December 4, 2015 Author Share Posted December 4, 2015 http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/russia-releases-proof-turkey-is-smuggling-isis-oil-over-its-border-a6757651.html http://finance.yahoo.com/news/putin-strikes-back-erdo-russia-183500453.html Depends whether you think official satellite imagery from a state defence department are more reputable than an article in the Financial Times though. Thanks for these - a quick look at the RT Youtube link within the first one - are the lorries mainly tankers or container lorries? This is the complicated issue about this - day to day trade is basically carrying on - the powers that be haven't blockaded the millions of people forced to live under ISIS. Borders are busy places and there will be a lot of lorries parked up at them. Imagery of any border crossing would look like that - maybe intelligence analysts have proven they are all tankers containing oil, but some, many, look like standard containers. I admit I'm being very cynical about this, but my view is smuggling is a sideshow compared to the local trade. I'm not saying it's not happening, I'm not saying people, maybe politically connected people, aren't profiting from it, but if you want to know where ISIS are getting the majority of their funding from I doubt it is smuggling the stuff out of their fief compared to squeezing the populations inside it, who need the stuff just as much and don't have other options to get it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chinahand Posted December 4, 2015 Author Share Posted December 4, 2015 The US Treasury disagrees with me - they see trade out of ISIS areas as being important, and blame Turks: Link Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chinahand Posted December 4, 2015 Author Share Posted December 4, 2015 Here's one for the conspiracists - the RAND Corporation puts oil at less than 10% of ISIS's revenues in 2014.ISIS’ estimated assets as of the fall of Mosul in June 2014$875 mil.ISIS’ estimated major revenue sources in 2014Extortion and taxation in Iraq $600 mil.Stolen from state-owned banks in Iraq $500 mil.Oil $100 mil.Kidnapping ransoms $20 mil.Foreign Policy basically agrees with RAND Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the stinking enigma Posted December 4, 2015 Share Posted December 4, 2015 Id imagine Putin has a few cards he hasn't played yet. I did read in the mail that more details of the various deals were going to be forwarded to soon to be dubbed comrade corbyn Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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