notwell Posted January 5, 2016 Share Posted January 5, 2016 Jess Phillips, the Labour MP for Birmingham Yardley elected just this past June, speaking last month to The Guardian (''Manx'' and all others with similar worldviews should very carefully note that source) said that Mr Corbyn's comments on shoot to kill were "worse" than when he failed to sing the national anthem at a Battle of Britain remembrance service in September. After the Paris attacks, Labour MPs openly criticised him after he told the BBC he was “not happy” with a “shoot-to-kill” policy if terrorists were attacking Britain and he also questioned the legality of killing Jihadi John. She described his shoot to kill comments as "pernicious" and said the public had just " wanted to hear after Paris that if a man walks down your street with a big gun and he's got a bomb strapped to him that we will shoot him in the head. Immediately. Ten times." I don't really understand the issue. Is there anything other than a Shoot to Kill policy? If you ever get to the point where there is a necessity to use your weapon (be that as an Armed Reponse Unit or as a member of HM Forces) then you are not shooting to injure someone. Any why would you aim for the head anyway? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cassie Posted January 5, 2016 Share Posted January 5, 2016 Deleted Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cassie Posted January 5, 2016 Share Posted January 5, 2016 Deleted Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cassie Posted January 5, 2016 Share Posted January 5, 2016 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rmanx Posted January 5, 2016 Share Posted January 5, 2016 "why would you aim for the head anyway?" If you don't know the answer to that ... The old 'Double-tap' incapacitates immediately. Spoken like a true armchair... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rmanx Posted January 5, 2016 Share Posted January 5, 2016 In fact the UK police have a very specific DO NOT SHOOT TO KILL policy and are not allowed to take, for example, head shots. At this very moment, this is changing to the very great extent that in compliance with a UK Government decision, all police officers who are permitted to carry guns are being (re)trained by SAS and other Special Forces so as to be able to ''shoot to kill'' (i.e. take headshots) in light of the increasing no of terrorist plans being found by the various UK and other Security Services and the increasing number of actual incidents. Hope this helps. No military in the world would be training domestic police forces to "aim for the head". The head is a very small target compared to the centre of mass...i.e. the torso. I think someone has been reading too many Andy McGrabb books. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rmanx Posted January 5, 2016 Share Posted January 5, 2016 "why would you aim for the head anyway?" If you don't know the answer to that ... The old 'Double-tap' incapacitates immediately. Spoken like a true armchair... Oh fuck off dickhead ... Yet I am still right. You haven't got the foggiest about what you are talking about... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chinahand Posted January 5, 2016 Author Share Posted January 5, 2016 In fact the UK police have a very specific DO NOT SHOOT TO KILL policy and are not allowed to take, for example, head shots. At this very moment, this is changing to the very great extent that in compliance with a UK Government decision, all police officers who are permitted to carry guns are being (re)trained by SAS and other Special Forces so as to be able to ''shoot to kill'' (i.e. take headshots) in light of the increasing no of terrorist plans being found by the various UK and other Security Services and the increasing number of actual incidents. Hope this helps. No military in the world would be training domestic police forces to "aim for the head". The head is a very small target compared to the centre of mass...i.e. the torso. I think someone has been reading too many Andy McGrabb books. Cough Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rmanx Posted January 5, 2016 Share Posted January 5, 2016 Cough And there was me thinking that the likes of the Daily Wail weren't viewed as credible... This article is sensationalist bollocks. Headshots are Hollywood. Headshots just aren't practical in a real world situation except by exceptional marksmen who have trained for it. The SAS, train for years and fire thousands and thousands of rounds to be able to make such shots at close range, are not the same as PC Smith who will fire a small percentage of rounds over his career. Anyone who knows anything about firearms knows you aim for centre of mass (or looking for the "T"). This talk about Headshots is pure bollocks. The human head is a quarter the size of the human torso, and has far less bone and tissue inside it. Again, anyone who knows about firearms knows about the dangers of "through and through". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
P.K. Posted January 5, 2016 Share Posted January 5, 2016 Jean Charles de Menezes was shot several times in the head from a range of about an inch to ensure he could not detonate a device they suspected he was carrying. Advice from the Israelis iirc. In my day it was two aimed rounds through the centre of the target ie the body. Two 7.62 mm rounds would through and through a car so you have to watch the background (yeah, right). I believe with 5.56 mm SOP's are now three rounds. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chinahand Posted January 5, 2016 Author Share Posted January 5, 2016 When dealing with suspected suicide bombers and, now, the "active shooter" terrorist head shots are definitely part of the training: Concerns about marauding terrorist attackers mean officers have been told they may need to shoot a terrorist suspect in the head because they may be wearing body armour. The Guardian Mr Chesterman also clarified that police forces in the UK do not have a "shoot to kill" policy. "Armed officers undergo rigorous training, which allows them to make a judgment call on whether life is at risk," he said. "For the most extreme threats, or if there is no other option, this training includes critical head shots. The Herald Scotland Sir Ian said officers had to aim for a suspected suicide bomber's head as a body shot could trigger an explosion as the chest area is where explosives are most likely to be. BBC News Operation Kratos guidelines for dealing with suicide bombers stipulate officers under certain circumstances should aim for the head to prevent detonation of a bomb. Steve House, Assistant Commissioner at the Metropolitan Police, who is carrying out the review, said: "[Kratos] was designed to deal with suicide terrorists but there are certain other circumstances where it could be applicable. For example, if there was a kidnap at gunpoint where the kidnapper was holding the victim around the body, pointing the weapon at their head and shouting they were about to shoot. Alternatively it might be a stalking case where the victim had a gun pointed at their head and there was no clear shot to the stalker's body." He added: "You could also have a Dunblane-like situation [the Scottish town where Thomas Hamilton killed 16 children and a teacher in 1996] with a man walking around killing at will.It could be under some of these exceptional circumstances that an officer would shoot to the head without giving a warning." The Independent Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chinahand Posted January 5, 2016 Author Share Posted January 5, 2016 Jean Charles de Menezes was shot several times in the head from a range of about an inch to ensure he could not detonate a device they suspected he was carrying. Advice from the Israelis iirc. In my day it was two aimed rounds through the centre of the target ie the body. Two 7.62 mm rounds would through and through a car so you have to watch the background (yeah, right). I believe with 5.56 mm SOP's are now three rounds. The police are also allowed to use dumdum bullets, which the Geneva conventions don't allow the military to use. I'm pretty sure the police rounds that go into a terrorist don't come out again ... they fragment in the body. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rmanx Posted January 5, 2016 Share Posted January 5, 2016 Oh I forgot pull off headshots on demand is just like in Walking Dead where people can bean zombies at 50 yards with a pistol with no effort what so ever. Its pandering for the media. Do you honestly expect PC Plod to pull off headshots with a heart rate of 180, adrenaline coursing, wounded civilians about, enemy gun fire, scream, shouts, civilians running around the joint getting in the way? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rmanx Posted January 5, 2016 Share Posted January 5, 2016 I would also be interested to know how many of these so called experts calling for head shots have ever attempted such a shot or have any idea just how difficult they are in a real world situation... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chinahand Posted January 5, 2016 Author Share Posted January 5, 2016 rmanx, are you being deliberately obtuse?Anti-terrorist police train for head shots with suspected suicide bombers and active shooters.That is a factual statement.That is what happened to Jean Charles de Menezes and is the current SOP for these specific circumstances. It isn't pandering to the media, it is a policy designed to counter a specific threat with sadly quite a lot of evidence to back it up from Israel. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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