The War in Syria - ISIS et al

[P.K.]

Which doesn't mean they're not training to do it when appropriate.

[HeliX]

Which doesn't mean they're not training to do it when appropriate.

 

Yes, but it's rather a misrepresentation on the part of the newspapers.

EDIT: Not that we should be surprised by that anymore!

[Chinahand]

Chinahand and the like are under the impression that all armed police are going to be slinging off bean shots like they were a piece of cake.

Oh my goodness, no I am not.

 

All I am saying is that headshots ARE a part of police training in certain circumstances.

 

That is a very simple point and I've provided a lot of evidence to show that that is the case.

 

rmanx has tried to strawman and ridicule this simple fact, but that doesn't stop it remaining a simple fact.

 

That doesn't nullify other training to fire into the body in other circumstances, as P.K. has pointed out tactics differ with circumstance.

 

An important point is that the police are concerned that they will be subject to civilian levels of scrutiny in a situation which is closer to a military operation, especially if things go wrong and another innocent party gets shot multiple times in the head - as has been pointed out that is standard operating procedure for a suicide bomber, what happened to JCDM is entirely consistent with what I've been saying and totally contradicts rmanx's assertions.

 

Specially trained fire-arms officers going in to an active shooting environment will not be giving warnings and their tactics pretty much guarantee death. That is problematic compared to the case law, the police are concerned about murder charges against their officers and are seeking clarity, especially given the reality of SNAFUs like JCDM.

 

That is feeding into the media coverage, especially with Corbyn being an anti-establishment figure with lots of supporters who see the police as filth.

 

The reality is the police are being trained to be very forceful and abrupt in a terrorist situation and the training does include headshots no matter what rmanx says. That is only one element, and the more important issue as far as the police see it is that they don't want to risk murder charges against fire-arms officers trained to use extreme prejudice in a civilian environment.

 

It's not an easy call to make as civil law includes a recklessness element in a murder charge.

[the stinking enigma]

I suppose we won't really know quite how good the response teams are until there happens to be an attack at a time when there is not an anti terrorism drill going on at the same time

[Chinahand]

In a city the size of London, Security companies, the military and the police will be running some sorts of drills basically every day of the week.

 

Given that a drill coinciding with a real terrorist attack isn't surprising at all.

[the stinking enigma]

I'm not saying it is my dear lad, I'm saying we won't really see how effective they are until it happens when there isn't a drill on

[rmanx]

Now if I was a terrorist looking to get up to no good, where would I pick as a target?

 

Would it be The City of London with 4 million SAS, half the British Army and a 1000 stormtroopers armed police?

 

Or would it be Manchester or Birmingham or Southampton or etc, etc?

 

Why strike the most well defended city in the country? I would start attacking all over the UK to stretch man power and resources to breaking point.

[Mr. Sausages]

London's more newsworthy worldwide - that's why it's the number one target in Britain.

[rmanx]

According to UK Government figures, in 2009 there were approx. 6,800 arms qualified officers in the UK.

 

Of which 2,800 (approx.) are assigned the Met Police. Those 2,800 make up approx. 5% of the total MPS active strength.

 

Constabularies covering large counties with densely-populated cities within their borders, such as West Midlands, Nottinghamshire and Merseyside, tend to have between 130 and 150.

More rural areas, such as Derbyshire, Cambridgeshire, North Wales and Durham, have between 50 and 100. Cumbria has 97.

[Chinahand]

I suppose we won't really know quite how good the response teams are until there happens to be an attack at a time when there is not an anti terrorism drill going on at the same time

I'm not saying it is my dear lad, I'm saying we won't really see how effective they are until it happens when there isn't a drill on

Don't patronize me, Stinky. When it happens for real it won't be a drill and how effective the training is in dealing with it will not be influenced in anyway by whether there is a drill on elsewhere.

 

Your posts claim we will not be able to assess how good the response teams will be if there are any drills being run at the same time.

 

I disagree with that and have called you out on it - why will we not be able to asses the response to a real terrorist attack if people are simultaneously training for one? - something which will always be the case.

[rmanx]

London's more newsworthy worldwide - that's why it's the number one target in Britain.

 

It will be a much easier target after personnel are diverted to other cities.

[rmanx]

I disagree with that and have called you out on it - why will we not be able to asses the response to a real terrorist attack if people are simultaneously training for one? - something which will always be the case.

 

 

How quickly do you reckon they would be able to recall all the personnel involved in the simulation, switch out and issue training rounds for live rounds?

 

How quickly do you think it would take to inform all personnel involved that they have switched from a training scenario to an actual live fire scenario?

 

And to quote a old military truism "an inspection ready unit isn't battle ready, and a battle ready unit isn't inspection ready"

[Chinahand]

 

London's more newsworthy worldwide - that's why it's the number one target in Britain.

It will be a much easier target after personnel are diverted to other cities.

 

Gosh, is rmanx beginning to understand the complexity of anti-terrorist planning and the intelligence, tactical and strategic dilemmas it involves.

[Chinahand]

 

I disagree with that and have called you out on it - why will we not be able to asses the response to a real terrorist attack if people are simultaneously training for one? - something which will always be the case.

How quickly do you reckon they would be able to recall all the personnel involved in the simulation, switch out and issue training rounds for live rounds?

 

How quickly do you think it would take to inform all personnel involved that they have switched from a training scenario to an actual live fire scenario?

 

And to quote a old military truism "an inspection ready unit isn't battle ready, and a battle ready unit isn't inspection ready"

 

You are asking me to generalize? It depends. Drilling goes from paper simulations involving tiny numbers of executives etc working through a scenario in a conference room to mass exercises involving all the emergency services.

 

Planning will include the things you mention, and a myriad more, if those involved are needed to switch from drill to real world with the delays etc that can cause.

 

Preparedness is exactly the issue the UK military, police and intelligence communities are facing in dealing with the reality of mass terrorist commando attacks on civilian populations.

 

Come live in the real world.

[rmanx]

 

 

London's more newsworthy worldwide - that's why it's the number one target in Britain.

It will be a much easier target after personnel are diverted to other cities.

 

Gosh, is rmanx beginning to understand the complexity of anti-terrorist planning and the intelligence, tactical and strategic dilemmas it involves.

 

 

Well I forgot that you sat in on all the COBRA briefings and was a counter terrorism expert.

 

By putting bullshit propaganda pieces out along the lines of "SAS training armed police" and making very public displays of hundreds of armed police about, and the whole New Years terror scare (which turned out to be a non event) you are basically saying "don't bother attacking here go up North".

 

The terrorists have won. You can't move around the capital without being scrutinised by police and cctv every 5 feet, major attractions and events are turning into security companies wet dreams.

 

Without even attacking UK soil we have gone into full on bunker mentality mode.