Winston Churchill on Islam

[quilp]

 

 

Taking the despicable Waahabism out of the equation, which is a new variant dreamed up by the Western powers who put the House of Saud into power. Is it really a threat to the west? Really?

Oh really? Wahhabism ''dreamed up by the Western powers who put the house of Saud into power ...''

 

Muhammad ibn Abd al-wahhab created the austere and puritanical sect of Wahhabism in the middle of the 18th century so its origins began way back then.

 

Facts, not nonsense hyperbole, please ...

While you are partial correct, the British did have a hand in spreading this vile corruption of Islam.

In the context of Lxxx's claim, I am completely correct.

 

Let's blame the British, eh?

 

Fucking tosser.

[rmanx]

 

 

 

Taking the despicable Waahabism out of the equation, which is a new variant dreamed up by the Western powers who put the House of Saud into power. Is it really a threat to the west? Really?

Oh really? Wahhabism ''dreamed up by the Western powers who put the house of Saud into power ...''

 

Muhammad ibn Abd al-wahhab created the austere and puritanical sect of Wahhabism in the middle of the 18th century so its origins began way back then.

 

Facts, not nonsense hyperbole, please ...

While you are partial correct, the British did have a hand in spreading this vile corruption of Islam.

In the context of Lxxx's claim, I am completely correct.

 

Let's blame the British, eh?

 

Fucking tosser.

 

 

Harsh and unnecessary.

 

Maybe if you read more and swore less you might be able to hold a polite conversation.

[quilp]

 

 

 

 

Taking the despicable Waahabism out of the equation, which is a new variant dreamed up by the Western powers who put the House of Saud into power. Is it really a threat to the west? Really?

Oh really? Wahhabism ''dreamed up by the Western powers who put the house of Saud into power ...''

 

Muhammad ibn Abd al-wahhab created the austere and puritanical sect of Wahhabism in the middle of the 18th century so its origins began way back then.

 

Facts, not nonsense hyperbole, please ...

While you are partial correct, the British did have a hand in spreading this vile corruption of Islam.

In the context of Lxxx's claim, I am completely correct.

 

Let's blame the British, eh?

 

Fucking tosser.

Harsh and unnecessary.

 

Maybe if you read more and swore less you might be able to hold a polite conversation.

With you?

 

You're an idiot...

[Tweek]

Not all his quotes were so serious...

 

[rmanx]

With you?

 

You're an idiot...

 

 

Suit yourself.

[notwell]

I blame Bush and Blair.

[quilp]

Watched 'Bitter Lake', a thought-provoking and controversial film by documentary-maker Adam Curtis, for the second time yesterday. I would recommend this to anyone who wishes to inform themselves of the rise of hard-line Wahhabism and the culture of islamic supremacism, submission and subjugation which so drives the forces of IS and other groups. It may help to dispell the myth that the actions of these islamists is, ''nothing to do with islam''. It has everything to do with that ideology.

 

The film focusses on the rule of the house of Saud and the mis-guided deals done with that deadly monarchy, by the Americans, over their (the Yank's) dream of developing Afghanistan into a 'model' democracy. The Yanks, the Brits and Russia wholly under-estimated the role that Wahhabism and its affect on an uneducated peasant population would have on that land.

 

The film is released exclusively to BBC i-player and is 2 hours of unbiased documentary. It highlights the naivety of successive super-power involvement in the affairs of both Saudi Arabia and Afghanistan from the 50's right up to the present day.

 

It is too easy to blame Bush and Blair exclusively for the desperate situation the Middle East finds itself in. For almost five decades the islamic world has been chaos-in-waitng, with the house of Saud, emboldened and armed by their un-witting American and British 'friends' being responsible from the outset.

[quilp]

Obviously not exclusive to i-player.

 

[notwell]

Watched 'Bitter Lake', a thought-provoking and controversial film by documentary-maker Adam Curtis, for the second time yesterday. I would recommend this to anyone who wishes to inform themselves of the rise of hard-line Wahhabism and the culture of islamic supremacism, submission and subjugation which so drives the forces of IS and other groups. It may help to dispell the myth that the actions of these islamists is, ''nothing to do with islam''. It has everything to do with that ideology.

 

The film focusses on the rule of the house of Saud and the mis-guided deals done with that deadly monarchy, by the Americans, over their (the Yank's) dream of developing Afghanistan into a 'model' democracy. The Yanks, the Brits and Russia wholly under-estimated the role that Wahhabism and its affect on an uneducated peasant population would have on that land.

 

The film is released exclusively to BBC i-player and is 2 hours of unbiased documentary. It highlights the naivety of successive super-power involvement in the affairs of both Saudi Arabia and Afghanistan from the 50's right up to the present day.

 

It is too easy to blame Bush and Blair exclusively for the desperate situation the Middle East finds itself in. For almost five decades the islamic world has been chaos-in-waitng, with the house of Saud, emboldened and armed by their un-witting American and British 'friends' being responsible from the outset.

I don't blame Bush and Blair by the way. I was just mimicking a few tree huggers on here.

[Aloha Oe]

Watched 'Bitter Lake', a thought-provoking and controversial film by documentary-maker Adam Curtis, for the second time yesterday. I would recommend this to anyone who wishes to inform themselves of the rise of hard-line Wahhabism and the culture of islamic supremacism, submission and subjugation which so drives the forces of IS and other groups. It may help to dispell the myth that the actions of these islamists is, ''nothing to do with islam''. It has everything to do with that ideology.

 

I have a few questions for people who think the west created fundamentalist, militant Islam.

 

What prompted the Crusades?

 

Wikipedia: The Umayyad Caliphate had conquered Syria, Egypt, and North Africa from the predominantly Christian Byzantine Empire, and Hispania from the Visigothic Kingdom. In North Africa, the Umayyad empire eventually collapsed and a number of smaller Muslim kingdoms emerged, such as the Aghlabids, who attacked Italy in the 9th century. Pisa, Genoa, and the Principality of Catalonia began to battle various Muslim kingdoms for control of the Mediterranean Basin, exemplified by the Mahdia campaign and battles at Majorca and Sardinia.Essentially, between the years 1096 and 1101 the Byzantine Greeks experienced the crusade as it arrived at Constantinople in three separate waves.

 

What was the 1453 Fall of Constantinople all about?

 

Wikipedia: The Fall of Constantinople (Turkish: Istanbul) was the capture of the capital of the Eastern Roman (Byzantine) Empire by an invading army of the Ottoman Empire on 29 May 1453. The Ottomans were commanded by 21-year-old Ottoman Sultan Mehmed II, who defeated an army commanded by Byzantine Emperor Constantine XI Palaiologos. The conquest of Constantinople followed a 53-day siege that had begun on 6 April 1453.The capture of Constantinople (and two other Byzantine splinter territories soon thereafter) marked the end of the Roman Empire, an imperial state which had lasted for nearly 1,500 years. The Ottoman conquest of Constantinople also dealt a massive blow to Christendom, as the Ottoman armies thereafter were left unchecked to advance into Europe without an adversary to their rear. After the conquest, Sultan Mehmed II transferred the capital of the Ottoman Empire from Edirne to Constantinople. Several Greek and other intellectuals fled the city before and after the siege, with the majority of them migrating particularly to Italy, which helped fuel the Renaissance.

 

What were the 1529 Siege of Vienna and the 1683 Battle of Vienna all about?

 

Wikipedia: The Siege of Vienna in 1529 was the first attempt by the Ottoman Empire, led by Suleiman the Magnificent, to capture the city of Vienna, Austria. The siege signalled the pinnacle of the Ottoman Empire's power and the maximum extent of Ottoman expansion in central Europe. Thereafter, 150 years of bitter military tension and reciprocal attacks ensued, culminating in the Battle of Vienna of 1683, which marked the start of the 15-year-long Great Turkish War.

 

Wikipedia: The Battle of Vienna (German: Schlacht am Kahlen Berge or Kahlenberg; Polish: bitwa pod Wiedniem or odsiecz wiedeńska; Modern Turkish: İkinci Viyana Kuşatması, Ottoman Turkish: Beç Ḳalʿası Muḥāṣarası) took place in Vienna on 11th and concluding on the 12th of September 1683 after the imperial city of Vienna had been besieged by the Ottoman Empire for two months. The battle was fought by the Holy Roman Empire of the German Nations in league with the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth (Holy League) against the invading Muslim Ottoman Empire and chiefdoms of the Ottoman Empire, and took place at Kahlenberg Mountain near Vienna. The battle marked the first time Poland and the Holy Roman Empire had cooperated militarily against the Turks, and it is often seen as a turning point in history, after which "the Ottoman Turks ceased to be a menace to the Christian world". In the ensuing war that lasted until 1698, the Turks lost almost all of Hungary to the Holy Roman Emperor Leopold I.

 

What was the Reconquista all about?

 

Wikipedia: In 711, Muslim Moors, mainly North African Berber soldiers with some Arabs, crossed the Strait of Gibraltar and began their conquest of the Visigothic Kingdom of Hispania. After their conquest of the Visigothic kingdom's Iberian territories, the Muslims crossed the Pyrenees and took control of Septimania in 719, the last province of the Visigothic kingdom to be occupied. From their stronghold of Narbonne, they launched raids into the Duchy of Aquitaine.

 

The Reconquista[a] ("reconquest") is a period in the history of the Iberian Peninsula, spanning the approximately 770 years between the initial stage of the Islamic conquest in the 710s and the fall of Granada, the last Islamic state on the peninsula, to expanding Christian kingdoms in 1492. The Reconquista ended immediately before the European discovery of the Americas—the "New World"—which ushered in the era of the Portuguese and Spanish colonial empires.

 

What was Yasser Arafat's second cousin Grand Mufti Amin al-Husseini's relationship with the Nazis all about?

 

Haj Amin al-Husseini meeting with Adolf Hitler (December 1941).

 

Al-Husseini meeting with Muslim volunteers, including the Azerbaijani Legion, at the opening of the Islamic Central Institute in Berlin on 18 December 1942, during the Muslim festival Eid al-Adha.

 

My opinion

 

ISIS and others like them are following a long path of continuity dating back to Muhammad himself. What they're doing right now is no different to what Muhammad and his gang were doing in the early days.

[pongo]

The film is released exclusively to BBC i-player and is 2 hours of unbiased documentary.

I am fascinated by and also very much enjoy Adam Curtis' work including Bitter Lake. But I think it would be a mistake to describe any of it as "unbiased". Assuming that "unbiased" means something like objective. His work is polemical and highly subjective - he tells stories which to a very significant extent seem to emerge from the footage which he finds - but not typically in a manner which is in any way linear or inevitable. If you listen to him talking about his process, that is what he seems to be all about.

[Shake me up Judy]

I watched Bitter Lake earlier this year. There didn't seem to be much clear narrative and it was very fragmented. He'd captured some wonderful images and footage but hadn't really made it into anything really cohesive. I felt it worked more as a film with its very powerful visuals, than as a documentary about Saudi politics and the oil relationship with America.

 

Maybe that was his intention but perhaps I need to watch it again.

[quilp]

I watched Bitter Lake earlier this year. There didn't seem to be much clear narrative and it was very fragmented. He'd captured some wonderful images and footage but hadn't really made it into anything really cohesive. I felt it worked more as a film with its very powerful visuals, than as a documentary about Saudi politics and the oil relationship with America.

 

Maybe that was his intention but perhaps I need to watch it again.

 

It was fragmented, and the were incidences where some parts of the narrative could've been explored more but it must've been a monumental task editing and condensing this subject into 2 and a half hours so ultimately the product is good, and honest, all things considered. The second time I watched it I picked up things missed initially, which tied a few loose ends. I will certainly watch it again because imo, it is an important piece of journalism on a little understood, globalistic problem that can will only get worse before it gets better.

 

It is the obvious plight of the innocents (for want of a better description) which is brought home; those un-educated, peasant victims caught up in the power struggles of influential local Warlords and distant Wahhabi Sheikhs. From decades ago till the situation we see now.

 

And the successive, vain-glorious naivety of the West.

 

Reading Adam Curtis's story on the filming and editing, is interesting and adds perspective.

[ballaughbiker]

I found it very fragmented but despite this quite illuminating. The present mess in Afghanistan is now a bit more understandable.

 

Not sure what it would change now but what if the west could wean itself from its oil addiction?

[Lxxx]

 

Watched 'Bitter Lake', a thought-provoking and controversial film by documentary-maker Adam Curtis, for the second time yesterday. I would recommend this to anyone who wishes to inform themselves of the rise of hard-line Wahhabism and the culture of islamic supremacism, submission and subjugation which so drives the forces of IS and other groups. It may help to dispell the myth that the actions of these islamists is, ''nothing to do with islam''. It has everything to do with that ideology.

 

I have a few questions for people who think the west created fundamentalist, militant Islam.

 

What prompted the Crusades?

 

Wikipedia: The Umayyad Caliphate had conquered Syria, Egypt, and North Africa from the predominantly Christian Byzantine Empire, and Hispania from the Visigothic Kingdom. In North Africa, the Umayyad empire eventually collapsed and a number of smaller Muslim kingdoms emerged, such as the Aghlabids, who attacked Italy in the 9th century. Pisa, Genoa, and the Principality of Catalonia began to battle various Muslim kingdoms for control of the Mediterranean Basin, exemplified by the Mahdia campaign and battles at Majorca and Sardinia.Essentially, between the years 1096 and 1101 the Byzantine Greeks experienced the crusade as it arrived at Constantinople in three separate waves.

 

What was the 1453 Fall of Constantinople all about?

 

Wikipedia: The Fall of Constantinople (Turkish: Istanbul) was the capture of the capital of the Eastern Roman (Byzantine) Empire by an invading army of the Ottoman Empire on 29 May 1453. The Ottomans were commanded by 21-year-old Ottoman Sultan Mehmed II, who defeated an army commanded by Byzantine Emperor Constantine XI Palaiologos. The conquest of Constantinople followed a 53-day siege that had begun on 6 April 1453.The capture of Constantinople (and two other Byzantine splinter territories soon thereafter) marked the end of the Roman Empire, an imperial state which had lasted for nearly 1,500 years. The Ottoman conquest of Constantinople also dealt a massive blow to Christendom, as the Ottoman armies thereafter were left unchecked to advance into Europe without an adversary to their rear. After the conquest, Sultan Mehmed II transferred the capital of the Ottoman Empire from Edirne to Constantinople. Several Greek and other intellectuals fled the city before and after the siege, with the majority of them migrating particularly to Italy, which helped fuel the Renaissance.

 

What were the 1529 Siege of Vienna and the 1683 Battle of Vienna all about?

 

Wikipedia: The Siege of Vienna in 1529 was the first attempt by the Ottoman Empire, led by Suleiman the Magnificent, to capture the city of Vienna, Austria. The siege signalled the pinnacle of the Ottoman Empire's power and the maximum extent of Ottoman expansion in central Europe. Thereafter, 150 years of bitter military tension and reciprocal attacks ensued, culminating in the Battle of Vienna of 1683, which marked the start of the 15-year-long Great Turkish War.

 

Wikipedia: The Battle of Vienna (German: Schlacht am Kahlen Berge or Kahlenberg; Polish: bitwa pod Wiedniem or odsiecz wiedeńska; Modern Turkish: İkinci Viyana Kuşatması, Ottoman Turkish: Beç Ḳalʿası Muḥāṣarası) took place in Vienna on 11th and concluding on the 12th of September 1683 after the imperial city of Vienna had been besieged by the Ottoman Empire for two months. The battle was fought by the Holy Roman Empire of the German Nations in league with the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth (Holy League) against the invading Muslim Ottoman Empire and chiefdoms of the Ottoman Empire, and took place at Kahlenberg Mountain near Vienna. The battle marked the first time Poland and the Holy Roman Empire had cooperated militarily against the Turks, and it is often seen as a turning point in history, after which "the Ottoman Turks ceased to be a menace to the Christian world". In the ensuing war that lasted until 1698, the Turks lost almost all of Hungary to the Holy Roman Emperor Leopold I.

 

What was the Reconquista all about?

 

Wikipedia: In 711, Muslim Moors, mainly North African Berber soldiers with some Arabs, crossed the Strait of Gibraltar and began their conquest of the Visigothic Kingdom of Hispania. After their conquest of the Visigothic kingdom's Iberian territories, the Muslims crossed the Pyrenees and took control of Septimania in 719, the last province of the Visigothic kingdom to be occupied. From their stronghold of Narbonne, they launched raids into the Duchy of Aquitaine.

 

The Reconquista[a] ("reconquest") is a period in the history of the Iberian Peninsula, spanning the approximately 770 years between the initial stage of the Islamic conquest in the 710s and the fall of Granada, the last Islamic state on the peninsula, to expanding Christian kingdoms in 1492. The Reconquista ended immediately before the European discovery of the Americas—the "New World"—which ushered in the era of the Portuguese and Spanish colonial empires.

 

What was Yasser Arafat's second cousin Grand Mufti Amin al-Husseini's relationship with the Nazis all about?

 

Haj Amin al-Husseini meeting with Adolf Hitler (December 1941).

 

Al-Husseini meeting with Muslim volunteers, including the Azerbaijani Legion, at the opening of the Islamic Central Institute in Berlin on 18 December 1942, during the Muslim festival Eid al-Adha.

 

My opinion

 

ISIS and others like them are following a long path of continuity dating back to Muhammad himself. What they're doing right now is no different to what Muhammad and his gang were doing in the early days.

 

 

 

So says Wikipedia.