P.K. Posted November 17, 2016 Share Posted November 17, 2016 Don't bother. There is only one opinion. His. Ahem.... @ PK: We all want the best for our kids but, surely, the future is always a leap in the dark. Disentangling from a closed shop, continent wide bureaucracy is not going to change that. Events evolve the whole time as do the stresses and strains within the EU. All true up to a point. That point being I suspect the EU will be around a lot longer than a loy of folks think it will. Again - time will tell.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
quilp Posted November 17, 2016 Share Posted November 17, 2016 If le Pen, and Geert Wilders are elected in France and The Netherlands respectively, it will possibly happen a lot quicker than some people imagine. Austria too, Nationalism is on the rise there too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
llap Posted November 17, 2016 Share Posted November 17, 2016 Outgoing war-mongering president says pro-peace president elect should not have peace with Russia Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
quilp Posted November 17, 2016 Share Posted November 17, 2016 So Merkel wants a 'face' on Globalization. Fine, as long as it's not hers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
P.K. Posted November 17, 2016 Share Posted November 17, 2016 If le Pen, and Geert Wilders are elected in France and The Netherlands respectively, it will possibly happen a lot quicker than some people imagine. Austria too, Nationalism is on the rise there too. Agree with that. But they would be pretty stupid not to wait out to see what, if any, deal the UK gets. As I have posted time and time and time again - it's all a big unknown... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
P.K. Posted November 17, 2016 Share Posted November 17, 2016 Don't bother. There is only one opinion. His. @Woolley - this isn't about opinions. It's about facts. I have asked a perfectly reasonable question of paswt to wit what economic numbers swayed Brexit voters to vote the way they did? I mean, surely Brexit voters knew what economic situation they were voting for....? ETA - poor grammar Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
quilp Posted November 17, 2016 Share Posted November 17, 2016 ... this isn't about opinions. It's about facts. I mean, surely Brexit voters knew what economic situation they were voting for? But but, what are the known facts? And, what economic situation are you describing? Surely, it is a fluid economic situation? Or do you have some specific information on the Brexit outcome? Like, er, facts... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
P.K. Posted November 17, 2016 Share Posted November 17, 2016 ... this isn't about opinions. It's about facts. I mean, surely Brexit voters knew what economic situation they were voting for? But but, what are the known facts? And, what economic situation are you describing? Surely, it is a fluid economic situation? Or do you have some specific information on the Brexit outcome? Like, er, facts... Has anyone any specific economic information on the Brexit outcome? If not, what motivated Brexit voters to turn out and produce the result they did ? You know, I was sure that Brexiteers had all the answers. Especially paswt. Now I'm not so sure.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
quilp Posted November 17, 2016 Share Posted November 17, 2016 Those who voted think it meant they might see a much-needed change in economic and social reform. St. Theresa captured the zeitgeist pretty accurately, "We will make Britain a country that works, not for a privileged few, but for every one of us". It is easy to claim it was the product of, "thicko's", islamophobes, "xenophobes" and other forgettable labels. It is worth noting that areas with the biggest change in the number of foreign-born residents in the preceding 15 years, were some of the ones with the highest Leave votes. There is no over-arching "cause" of the Brexit vote. I think continuing to look for one is a wild goose chase. Have you tried putting aside your assumptions and waiting and seeing? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
P.K. Posted November 17, 2016 Share Posted November 17, 2016 So it was all a massive coincidence that the areas of the UK that voted Brexit had the highest number of retirees?Well, who would have thought it...?@quilp As I have posted time and time and time again - it's all a big unknown... So which part of the above is it that you don't understand...? So you readily admit it wasn't economic arguments that swayed Brexit voters. So what was it then? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the stinking enigma Posted November 17, 2016 Share Posted November 17, 2016 maybe their kids are skint and earning shit money? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
P.K. Posted November 17, 2016 Share Posted November 17, 2016 maybe their kids are skint and earning shit money? Yesterday UK unemployment hit a new low - http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-37997713 Mind you, how many are on zero-hours contracts and still being supported by the taxpayer...? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paswt Posted November 17, 2016 Share Posted November 17, 2016 ... this isn't about opinions. It's about facts. I mean, surely Brexit voters knew what economic situation they were voting for? But but, what are the known facts? And, what economic situation are you describing? Surely, it is a fluid economic situation? Or do you have some specific information on the Brexit outcome? Like, er, facts... Has anyone any specific economic information on the Brexit outcome? If not, what motivated Brexit voters to turn out and produce the result they did ? You know, I was sure that Brexiteers had all the answers. Especially paswt. Now I'm not so sure.... for the record, as I have stated before , I could have voted as I have only lived on the IOM since 2002. I didn't because I felt that as i didn't pay tax in the UK or live there it would be inappropriate to vote. That said some may have voted for other than financial reasons , they may ,for example, take the view that they don't like the idea of "the united states of Europe" as a concept (with it's own army) or find it ridiculous that the parliament moves for one place to another for no (to them) good reason.Folk in the fishing/haulage/boat tripping/farming businesses maintain that the 'rules' are enforced in the UK with vigour but not in other EU countries I have 4 sons living in the UK , 3 voted to stay, one to leave, I saw no reason to engage any of them in the arguments for or against as I felt it was not my concern. That said they were at pains to explain their reasons The future of the EU is IMO uncertain given what we are told about Greece and the dire prognostications voiced about the financial state of Spain and Italy. So PK I don't have any answers we will now have to wait and see but I think that to "slag off" ALL those who voted to leave isn't particularly helpful , a reasoned argument may go some way to persuade them to change their opinion and perhaps help you to understand why they took the decision they did Just saying Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
llap Posted November 17, 2016 Share Posted November 17, 2016 for the record, as I have stated before , I could have voted as I have only lived on the IOM since 2002. I didn't because I felt that as i didn't pay tax in the UK or live there it would be inappropriate to vote. I'm as Manx as the hills and only ever lived in the UK in order to pursue my academic studies, and I could have voted on Brexit as well, but didn't realise I was eligible to do so until the day after it happened. For the record, I would have voted to leave that tyrannical, undemocratic organisation. For the life of me, I cannot understand why people on the left are so enthusiastic about membership in a union which is undemocratic, given that I thought democracy was supposed to be one of their primary concerns, especially in their objection to Brexit, in claiming Scotland should be allowed to secede from the [british] union because most Scottish were for remaining in the EU. So, on the grounds of democratic representation, they believe in democratically voting to remain in an undemocratic union. They don't appear to be able to make their minds up. On the bright side, I voted Conservative in 2010 and this did lead to the chain of events that led to the referendum so I have a clean conscience. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
llap Posted November 17, 2016 Share Posted November 17, 2016 This whole "left" vs "right" thing is a subject deserving of its own thread and discussion. I've always considered myself left-wing, yet with recent political developments such as Brexit and Trump, I find people that I regard as right-wing establishment cronies (and people who have in the past seen me as a radical left-winger) trying to pigeon hole me as a right-winger. It's fascinating and, I believe, a testament to just how intellectually vacuous the entire left-right paradigm is. The weekend is nearly here; I might post an essay on the topic as a thread. Or I might not. Stay tuned. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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