Brussels Attacks

[rmanx]

"Mr Sutherland, who is non-executive chairman of Goldman Sachs International and a former chairman of oil giant BP, heads the Global Forum on Migration and Development , which brings together representatives of 160 nations to share policy ideas."

 

He hardly sounds like liberal elite to me...

[paswt]

 

Well that's an opinion rmanx in relation to the "Brexit result".

 

Not an opinion, it is a fact.

 

Of the 46 million eligible voters, 17.4 million voted for brexit and 16.1 million voted for remain, leaving 12.5 million voters who either didn't vote or invalidated their vote.

 

 

I was referring to your claim of "lies/voter apathy and ignorance" of the 17.4 million who voted for "brexit".

 

I take it you think it was a bad idea to vote to leave ?

[manxb&b]

 

According to the United Nations High Commission on Refugees (UNHCR), the statistical breakdown of the refugees are pretty much split 50-50 between men and women.

However, of those who have travelled by sea through the Mediterranean, 69% are male adults, 18% are children and 13% are female adults.

UNHCR Refugees/Migrants Emergency Response - Mediterranean

 

Now, not all of these are Syrians, although the majority of them are. There are also a number of people from Afghanistan and a small number from Eritrea and various other countries (all of which contribute 3% or less to the total). It is likely that a large number of these people who have made the journey anyway, as Europe generally receives tens of thousands of asylum seekers each year.

 

While the majority of those seeking asylum in Europe might be adult males, the statistics from the UNHCR show that of the total refugees coming out of the Syrian conflict, the split is pretty even, and around 38% of them are children under 12.

 

There isn't just one reason why hundreds of thousands of people make the decision to travel on this perilous path. There are a number of reasons why it might be adult males making the journey by sea:

 

 

• The threat of daily violence has become too much to bear
• Fear of forced conscription in Syria by both the government and Islamist groups, including ISIS
• Better economic opportunities
• Easier for men to undertake the journey by themselves than with their families or their partners, both financially and physically

 

What sort of ''men'' leave their women and children behind in a dangerous/war torn country while they fuck off to pastures new?

[dilligaf]

 

 

 

Really? Have I missed an awful lot of terrorism then ?

 

 

Open your eyes then (but then are terrorists only brown in your eyes?)

 

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2016/jun/16/labour-mp-jo-cox-shot-in-west-yorkshire

 

 

You said,

Its like America, 94% of terrorist activity is not committed by so called "Muslim Terrorists" , with the majority being carried out by white, male, "Christians" with a fair few identifying with the Neo-Nai movement.'

 

When I questioned that, you link to the vile killing of a decent person in Yorkshire, England.

What were all the terrorist activities that happened in America that you speak of.?

 

Are you calling all murders terrorism ?

[rmanx]

Dilli:

 

You did not frame the question "Really? Have I missed an awful lot of terrorism then ?" in specific relation to my America statement.

 

I responded by linking the killing of Jo Cox. This was not just a murder, it was a signal from right wing extremists. An act of terrorism.

 

I am not calling all murders terrorism, I am saying that murder with intent to send or spread a political or ideological message is terrorism.

 

And with regards to America:

 

"Since 9/11, [Charles Kurzman, Professor of Sociology at University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill, writing for the Triangle Center on Terrorism and National Security] and his team tallies, 33 Americans have died as a result of terrorism launched by their Muslim neighbors. During that period, 180,000 Americans were murdered for reasons unrelated to terrorism. In just the past year, the mass shootings that have captivated America’s attention killed 66 Americans, “twice as many fatalities as from Muslim-American terrorism in all 11 years since 9/11,” notes Kurzman’s team.

Law enforcement, including “informants and undercover agents,” were involved in “almost all of the Muslim-American terrorism plots uncovered in 2012,” the Triangle team finds. That’s in keeping with the FBI’s recent practice of using undercover or double agents to encourage would-be terrorists to act on their violent desires and arresting them when they do — a practice critics say comes perilously close to entrapment. A difference in 2012 observed by Triangle: with the exception of the Arizona attack, all the alleged plots involving U.S. Muslims were “discovered and disrupted at an early stage,” while in the past three years, law enforcement often observed the incubating terror initiatives “after weapons or explosives had already been gathered.”

The sample of Muslim Americans turning to terror is “vanishingly small,” Kurzman tells Danger Room. Measuring the U.S. Muslim population is a famously inexact science, since census data don’t track religion, but rather “country of origin,” which researchers attempt to use as a proxy. There are somewhere between 1.7 million and seven million American Muslims, by most estimates, and Kurzman says he operates off a model that presumes the lower end, a bit over 2 million. That’s less a rate of involvement in terrorism of less than 10 per million, down from a 2003 high of 40 per million, as detailed in the chart above.

Yet the scrutiny by law enforcement and homeland security on American Muslims has not similarly abated. The FBI tracks “geomaps” of areas where Muslims live and work, regardless of their involvement in any crime. The Patriot Act and other post-9/11 restrictions on government surveillance remain in place. The Department of Homeland Security just celebrated its 10th anniversary. In 2011, President Obama ordered the entire federal national-security apparatus to get rid of counterterrorism training material that instructed agents to focus on Islam itself, rather than specific terrorist groups.

Kurzman doesn’t deny that law enforcement plays a role in disrupting and deterring homegrown U.S. Muslim terrorism. His research holds it out as a possible explanation for the decline. But he remains surprised by the disconnect between the scale of the terrorism problem and the scale — and expense — of the government’s response.

“Until public opinion starts to recognize the scale of the problem has been lower than we feared, my sense is that public officials are not going to change their policies,” Kurzman says. “Counterterrorism policies have involved surveillance — not just of Muslim-Americans, but of all Americans, and the fear of terrorism has justified intrusions on American privacy and civil liberties all over the internet and other aspects of our lives. I think the implications here are not just for how we treat a religious minority in the U.S., but also how we treat the rights & liberties of everyone.”

 

tl:dr version - Muslims are not the biggest concern in terms of terrorism (be it domestic or international) in America. But by the media fed fear mongering, society is marginalising and demonising an entire demographic within that society which in term breeds resentment in that demographic (which I believe is entirely by design)

[woolley]

"Mr Sutherland, who is non-executive chairman of Goldman Sachs International and a former chairman of oil giant BP, heads the Global Forum on Migration and Development , which brings together representatives of 160 nations to share policy ideas."

 

He hardly sounds like liberal elite to me...

Not fiscally. Politically he is. But there is a powerful coalition that really believes in this kind of thing. And a percentage of the population of people with views like yours that have been nurtured to accept it. What a shock you are going to have.

[the stinking enigma]

The british intelligence services did the same shit in ireland

[dilligaf]

Dilli:

 

You did not frame the question "Really? Have I missed an awful lot of terrorism then ?" in specific relation to my America statement.

 

I responded by linking the killing of Jo Cox. This was not just a murder, it was a signal from right wing extremists. An act of terrorism.

 

I am not calling all murders terrorism, I am saying that murder with intent to send or spread a political or ideological message is terrorism.

 

And with regards to America:

 

"Since 9/11, [Charles Kurzman, Professor of Sociology at University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill, writing for the Triangle Center on Terrorism and National Security] and his team tallies, 33 Americans have died as a result of terrorism launched by their Muslim neighbors. During that period, 180,000 Americans were murdered for reasons unrelated to terrorism. In just the past year, the mass shootings that have captivated America’s attention killed 66 Americans, “twice as many fatalities as from Muslim-American terrorism in all 11 years since 9/11,” notes Kurzman’s team.

Law enforcement, including “informants and undercover agents,” were involved in “almost all of the Muslim-American terrorism plots uncovered in 2012,” the Triangle team finds. That’s in keeping with the FBI’s recent practice of using undercover or double agents to encourage would-be terrorists to act on their violent desires and arresting them when they do — a practice critics say comes perilously close to entrapment. A difference in 2012 observed by Triangle: with the exception of the Arizona attack, all the alleged plots involving U.S. Muslims were “discovered and disrupted at an early stage,” while in the past three years, law enforcement often observed the incubating terror initiatives “after weapons or explosives had already been gathered.”

The sample of Muslim Americans turning to terror is “vanishingly small,” Kurzman tells Danger Room. Measuring the U.S. Muslim population is a famously inexact science, since census data don’t track religion, but rather “country of origin,” which researchers attempt to use as a proxy. There are somewhere between 1.7 million and seven million American Muslims, by most estimates, and Kurzman says he operates off a model that presumes the lower end, a bit over 2 million. That’s less a rate of involvement in terrorism of less than 10 per million, down from a 2003 high of 40 per million, as detailed in the chart above.

Yet the scrutiny by law enforcement and homeland security on American Muslims has not similarly abated. The FBI tracks “geomaps” of areas where Muslims live and work, regardless of their involvement in any crime. The Patriot Act and other post-9/11 restrictions on government surveillance remain in place. The Department of Homeland Security just celebrated its 10th anniversary. In 2011, President Obama ordered the entire federal national-security apparatus to get rid of counterterrorism training material that instructed agents to focus on Islam itself, rather than specific terrorist groups.

Kurzman doesn’t deny that law enforcement plays a role in disrupting and deterring homegrown U.S. Muslim terrorism. His research holds it out as a possible explanation for the decline. But he remains surprised by the disconnect between the scale of the terrorism problem and the scale — and expense — of the government’s response.

“Until public opinion starts to recognize the scale of the problem has been lower than we feared, my sense is that public officials are not going to change their policies,” Kurzman says. “Counterterrorism policies have involved surveillance — not just of Muslim-Americans, but of all Americans, and the fear of terrorism has justified intrusions on American privacy and civil liberties all over the internet and other aspects of our lives. I think the implications here are not just for how we treat a religious minority in the U.S., but also how we treat the rights & liberties of everyone.”

 

tl:dr version - Muslims are not the biggest concern in terms of terrorism (be it domestic or international) in America. But by the media fed fear mongering, society is marginalising and demonising an entire demographic within that society which in term breeds resentment in that demographic (which I believe is entirely by design)

 

So since 9/11, 33 Americans have been killed by Muslim terrorists, but go back by just one day and add over 2000 more to that figure and it sort of alters the numbers somewhat.( or again, have I missed something here ?)

[the stinking enigma]

Try this

[rmanx]

So since 9/11, 33 Americans have been killed by Muslim terrorists, but go back by just one day and add over 2000 more to that figure and it sort of alters the numbers somewhat.( or again, have I missed something here ?)

 

 

If you are in a pissing contest for a body count score..I think the West are winning with innocents killed, so I wouldn't get too high on that moral high ground...

 

And again, yes you are missing something...since 9/11 33 (granted this study was 2005/6 I think) have been killed by so called Islamic terrorists. You'd think if they were as hell bent on killing and destroying as they are portrayed in the media (and the fevered wet dreams of certain posters), it would be a lot higher wouldn't it?

 

More Americans were killed by tripping and killing themselves than terrorists last year....

[woolley]

 

And again, yes you are missing something...since 9/11 33 (granted this study was 2005/6 I think) have been killed by so called Islamic terrorists. You'd think if they were as hell bent on killing and destroying as they are portrayed in the media (and the fevered wet dreams of certain posters), it would be a lot higher wouldn't it?

 

Cancer starts with a single insignificant cell. It ultimately kills the host.

[rmanx]

 

 

And again, yes you are missing something...since 9/11 33 (granted this study was 2005/6 I think) have been killed by so called Islamic terrorists. You'd think if they were as hell bent on killing and destroying as they are portrayed in the media (and the fevered wet dreams of certain posters), it would be a lot higher wouldn't it?

 

Cancer starts with a single insignificant cell. It ultimately kills the host.

 

 

I believe the Nazi's had a similar view of the Jews. I mean, as long as we are making comparisons to another religious/ethic group...

[woolley]

 

 

 

And again, yes you are missing something...since 9/11 33 (granted this study was 2005/6 I think) have been killed by so called Islamic terrorists. You'd think if they were as hell bent on killing and destroying as they are portrayed in the media (and the fevered wet dreams of certain posters), it would be a lot higher wouldn't it?

 

Cancer starts with a single insignificant cell. It ultimately kills the host.

 

 

I believe the Nazi's had a similar view of the Jews. I mean, as long as we are making comparisons to another religious/ethic group...

 

The Islamisation of Europe has no parallel with the 1930s at all.

[the stinking enigma]

My impression was that it was being driven by america to weaken europe and thus nulify the future economic threat which a fully united europe would pose. The british, being special relationship lickspittles are selling us and the rest of europe out quite happily

[woolley]

There will never be a united Europe. Too many disparate vested interests.