woolley Posted March 29, 2016 Share Posted March 29, 2016 Of course we are "not trusted", but then who is? This is humanity we are talking about. It doesn't have a good record on trustworthiness. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paswt Posted March 29, 2016 Share Posted March 29, 2016 Don't disagree woolley and I accept that 'deals' have to be done with tyrants on both sides in order to try and protect the innocent civilians . I just find it laughable that folk clamour to claim the moral high ground and justify their conflicting claims based on history , in some cases going back hundreds of years and occasionally because their "god" said so . I don't need to be referred to/directed by the views/writings of "experts" recommended by some on this site to prop up their arguments , I've heard most of it before and , unfortunately, I'm not young enough to know everything Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rmanx Posted March 29, 2016 Share Posted March 29, 2016 Remember folks, its only a war crime if you are caught...otherwise its just war. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chinahand Posted March 29, 2016 Share Posted March 29, 2016 I just find it laughable that folk clamour to claim the moral high ground Sorry, but in my books there is a clear moral landscape and ISIS is an immoral, genocidal, enslaving organization which glorifies slaughter and terror. Its defeat, while no doubt involving many acts of evil will be the lesser evil than allowing it to spread. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rmanx Posted March 29, 2016 Share Posted March 29, 2016 Sorry, but in my books there is a clear moral landscape... That is possible the dumbest thing I have seen you type in the 8 or so years I have been reading this forum. Yes, ISIS are clearly bad guys, no one is disputing that, but please don't be so naive as to think we are whiter than white good guys in all of this. We created the turmoil that allowed groups like IS to fester. We created the power vacuum that allowed IS to grow and grow. We are creating the future martyrs be marginalizing all Muslims for the actions of a few. We also support the very regimes that are arming and funding them (you think all those Toyotas and terror cells pay for themselves?) "We" (the West) have killed and continue to kill far more innocent people every week than IS can hope to kill all year. And then there is the fall out of all those innocent deaths that we will have to deal with in the future. We will be at war with the Middle East for decades to come, and we only have our selves to blame Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ballaughbiker Posted March 29, 2016 Share Posted March 29, 2016 I agree that the west has had a helluva lot to answer for in the last 10 years but all wasn't happy and joyful in eg Iraq and Libya before the west poked it's nose in. The middle east have been at each others throats for centuries and just because some recent dictators kept the lid on things by very harsh means indeed (and grinning to the cameras whilst patting kids on the head), that doesn't go on to mean that all the trouble started only when they were removed. Quite agree about being 'friends' with the nutter's financial supporters though. That really does take some justifying.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chinahand Posted March 29, 2016 Share Posted March 29, 2016 Sorry, but in my books there is a clear moral landscape... That is possible the dumbest thing I have seen you type in the 8 or so years I have been reading this forum. Yes, ISIS are clearly bad guys, no one is disputing that, but please don't be so naive as to think we are whiter than white good guys in all of this. Strawmanning - where have I said this? You've deliberately edited my post to remove the context. We commit multiple acts of evil, I've admitted this. That doesn't mean there isn't a clear moral difference between the west and ISIS. Stop seeing this in black and white. There are graduations and ISIS is more evil, more monstrous - leaving it to advance and control ever larger areas is a recipe for genocide and even further instability in both the Middle East and Europe/the West. We created the turmoil that allowed groups like IS to fester. We created the power vacuum that allowed IS to grow and grow. We are creating the future martyrs be marginalizing all Muslims for the actions of a few. Who is we here? You really have a desire to divide everything up in Manichean terms. The Bush administration was hubristic and incompetent and yes it has totally failed in its strategic and tactical plans in the Middle East. The result is chaos, but context is still important - Iraq under Saddam was just just as violent, as was Syria under Assad Senior. These societies have been dysfunctional for generations and have resorted to totalitarianism, violence and ethnic cleansing repeatedly. As ever it is highly likely you will blame all this on the West - I assume you also hold us responsible for Stalin's purges and famines too. We also support the very regimes that are arming and funding them (you think all those Toyotas and terror cells pay for themselves?) "We" (the West) have killed and continue to kill far more innocent people every week than IS can hope to kill all year. And then there is the fall out of all those innocent deaths that we will have to deal with in the future. Evidence? You basically have to include every single person killed in Iraq and Afghanistan as being directly killed by "us" - by far the majority of deaths are caused by Iraqis fighting Iraqis and Afghans fighting Afghans. To hold "us" responsible for all of this is to remove responsibility from too many other actors. We will be at war with the Middle East for decades to come, and we only have our selves to blame. I agree that the middle east will remain a source of instability for decades to come but blame also belongs to the tribal and religious zealotry existing in these societies. The west hasn't understood these societies and so has made terrible errors in its dealings with them, but you continually wish to pretend that there are no responsibilities from the actors within the Middle East - "They've been invaded by the US therefore they don't have any moral responsibility for the atrocities they commit" is one twisted view point, but you express it again and again. You seem to believe that everything is the West's fault. The reality is far more nuanced - with responsibilities spread far wider. This won't end until some sort of Peace of Westphalia settlement, that Peace came after over 40 years of war, atrocity and ethnic cleansing. Goodness knows how the Middle East will come to terms with its contradictions - but its zealotry and partisanship will not lead it to peace - quite the opposite. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
notwell Posted March 29, 2016 Share Posted March 29, 2016 Sorry, but in my books there is a clear moral landscape...That is possible the dumbest thing I have seen you type in the 8 or so years I have been reading this forum. Yes, ISIS are clearly bad guys, no one is disputing that, but please don't be so naive as to think we are whiter than white good guys in all of this. We created the turmoil that allowed groups like IS to fester. We created the power vacuum that allowed IS to grow and grow. We are creating the future martyrs be marginalizing all Muslims for the actions of a few. We also support the very regimes that are arming and funding them (you think all those Toyotas and terror cells pay for themselves?) "We" (the West) have killed and continue to kill far more innocent people every week than IS can hope to kill all year. And then there is the fall out of all those innocent deaths that we will have to deal with in the future. We will be at war with the Middle East for decades to come, and we only have our selves to blame That's right folks. It's all our fault. Utterly deluded. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paswt Posted March 29, 2016 Share Posted March 29, 2016 Don't disagree woolley and I accept that 'deals' have to be done with tyrants on both sides in order to try and protect the innocent civilians . I just find it laughable that folk clamour to claim the moral high ground and justify their conflicting claims based on history , in some cases going back hundreds of years and occasionally because their "god" said so . I don't need to be referred to/directed by the views/writings of "experts" recommended by some on this site to prop up their arguments , I've heard most of it before and , unfortunately, I'm not young enough to know everything I just find it laughable that folk clamour to claim the moral high ground Sorry, but in my books there is a clear moral landscape and ISIS is an immoral, genocidal, enslaving organization which glorifies slaughter and terror. Its defeat, while no doubt involving many acts of evil will be the lesser evil than allowing it to spread. LOL , nice little edit there "china" effectively attempting to put words in my mouth by grasping the wrong end of the wrong stick in a cheap attempt to back up your dubious claims For someone who purports to be a bit "book clever" you really should try to be be a bit more 'honest' and attempt to be tad less patronising . Hope this helps Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paswt Posted March 29, 2016 Share Posted March 29, 2016 Sorry, but in my books there is a clear moral landscape... That is possible the dumbest thing I have seen you type in the 8 or so years I have been reading this forum. Yes, ISIS are clearly bad guys, no one is disputing that, but please don't be so naive as to think we are whiter than white good guys in all of this. Strawmanning - where have I said this? You've deliberately edited my post to remove the context. LOL ...... pot=kettle = black. Perhaps you taught " rmanx " the art of doing just that , given the way you did EXACTLY the same thing when you DELIBERATELY EDITED MY POSTS .... See above (not sure how to post in red so thought capitals would do) Hope this help[s , of only to disabuse you of the notion that you are 'superior' Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chinahand Posted March 29, 2016 Share Posted March 29, 2016 pawst - do you think it is clear or not that the West occupies a higher moral ground than ISIS? Note this is relative and isn't saying the West is whiter than white. I think it is clear that we do, and that is the point I am trying to argue and I am trying to understand the views of those who disagree. Do you think it is laughable to make this claim or not? Is there a clear moral difference between the West and Putin, or the PRC - that becomes a much more interesting debate which a lot more nuance and less clear moral clarity - but when the topic is ISIS I am pretty firmly of the opinion the nuance is not enough to cloud the clear moral difference. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chinahand Posted March 29, 2016 Share Posted March 29, 2016 PS. Pawst if you want to make it red - it is the button to the right of the Size box, and to the left of the ! Select the text, then press the button and select the colour. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rmanx Posted March 30, 2016 Share Posted March 30, 2016 That's right folks. It's all our fault. Utterly deluded. Who removed the regimes that held the loonies in check? Who created an environment where the loonies can thrive? Who is supporting the regimes that fund and arm the loonies? I'll give you a clue....starts with W and ends in est. You're the one that has his head in the proverbial Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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