Monkey boy Posted March 31, 2016 Share Posted March 31, 2016 You can't really call the USSR communist in any real sense of the word though. America certainly played its part in propaganda to those behind the iron curtain and in disrupting the economy of the USSR. Just because something has been badly practiced in the past doesn't necessarily mean it's a bad idea. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
woolley Posted March 31, 2016 Share Posted March 31, 2016 I don't think it's about that anymore Woolley. That argument was settled a long time ago. The public / private debate is too simplistic where there is no free market, and that doesn't mean that traditional State ownership and nationalisaton is necessarily the answer. If we don't find a third way, and if we lose industries like Steel, then we won't have an economy at all. What will the British economy be in ten or twenty years time ? It seems to me that we have opportunities but that will involve at least some degree of State subsidy. Of course that's right. We cannot lose steel although I certainly wouldn't be sending subsidies to Bombay. It comes back to where we started to go off at this tangent. It is the inescapable consequence of globalisation and deregulated capitalism. Since we are told that Britain would face trade barriers in the event of Brexit, why can't the West erect trade barriers against dumped product from the Far East? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
woolley Posted March 31, 2016 Share Posted March 31, 2016 You can't really call the USSR communist in any real sense of the word though. America certainly played its part in propaganda to those behind the iron curtain and in disrupting the economy of the USSR. Just because something has been badly practiced in the past doesn't necessarily mean it's a bad idea. It's a bad idea, Monkey. A really bad idea. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Monkey boy Posted March 31, 2016 Share Posted March 31, 2016 You can't really call the USSR communist in any real sense of the word though. America certainly played its part in propaganda to those behind the iron curtain and in disrupting the economy of the USSR. Just because something has been badly practiced in the past doesn't necessarily mean it's a bad idea. It's a bad idea, Monkey. A really bad idea.But why? The only reason you've given so far is human nature, I simply don't accept that, you can't write off the entire human race so easily. Part of what separates us from the animals is that we can educate ourselves. We are not born greedy, the only instincts we are born with are survival & reproduction - neither of which necessitate greed. Greed is learned. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
woolley Posted March 31, 2016 Share Posted March 31, 2016 I didn't mean "human nature" in any pejorative sense here. Human nature is multi-faceted. A communist society is a straitjacket to the spirit. It is not possible to progress because everything only moves at the speed of the slowest constituent part and that is what brought about the downfall of the Soviet Union. You need personal ambition or some of what you are calling greed. I know that today we have excess, but the opposite is infinitely worse. From each according to his ability, to each according to his needs. Do you honestly believe that the world can be educated to live up to that? I have sympathy with the pure idealism. I grew up sharing it. Don't mistake it for something workable. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Monkey boy Posted March 31, 2016 Share Posted March 31, 2016 Yes I do. There's nothing wrong with ambition, I've had & continue to have many ambitions - earning lots of money has never been one of them and to have that as the main motivating tool for a whole society is the very definition of a straight jacket to the spirit. You may think we live in a free world, but not one of us is free from the need to make money, it consumes our life, even defines us, and yet a good deal of the world live in the most appalling poverty - the human race is better than this & if it isn't it doesn't deserve to survive. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
woolley Posted April 1, 2016 Share Posted April 1, 2016 I know where you are coming from idealistically. As I said, I was once there. It is just that central control and a planned economy is incompatible with human nature. I don't think that "earning lots of money" is the main motivating tool, but doing well and improving your lot for you and your family certainly is. I would not want to live in a society where the government owned, ran and controlled everything, apart from the inefficiencies that would engender. Can you imagine what that would be like on the Island? Communists always revert to the cop out "it hasn't been done properly". That's the rub though because it cannot be done in it's purist form. Just as nature abhors a vacuum, humanity abhors central control. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Monkey boy Posted April 1, 2016 Share Posted April 1, 2016 But that is not the ultimate aim of communism, far from it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
woolley Posted April 1, 2016 Share Posted April 1, 2016 But that is not the ultimate aim of communism, far from it. How can it work then? Someone has to be in control. Tell us of a form that you believe is workable for society and acceptable to the vast majority of people. You see, I have come from being a believer to almost the total opposite. When I started work I came under the influence of a card carrying member of the party and I read the Morning Star every day. Slowly you start to realise it's a load of nonsense. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Monkey boy Posted April 1, 2016 Share Posted April 1, 2016 But that is not the ultimate aim of communism, far from it. How can it work then? Someone has to be in control. If you are going to spout about Marxism you should really find out a bit more about it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
woolley Posted April 1, 2016 Share Posted April 1, 2016 But that is not the ultimate aim of communism, far from it. How can it work then? Someone has to be in control. If you are going to spout about Marxism you should really find out a bit more about it. I know that the idea is that there is no control but that is anarchy. It cannot work. It would cause mayhem. You are a dreamer like I was as a teenager but you just haven't grown out of it. What are you going to do? Kill off anyone who wants to get ahead or those with the eye to the main chance for the greater good? "Educate" them with drugs? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Monkey boy Posted April 1, 2016 Share Posted April 1, 2016 It doesn't happen tomorrow though does it, education takes place over several generations - it wouldn't be easy I'll admit - I think the difference between us is that I don't see that as a reason to give up on something. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
woolley Posted April 1, 2016 Share Posted April 1, 2016 Well that's your take on it. Mine is to know when you're flogging a dead horse, or in this case one that never had the viability for life. For one thing, I think you underestimate the individual human spirit. For another, no matter how you spin it, whatever system you have there will always be those at the top. Call it government, call it whatever you like, but without it nothing would be organised, nothing would work. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Monkey boy Posted April 1, 2016 Share Posted April 1, 2016 I think you underestimate the human spirit - anyway I better go & do a bit, someone's got to keep the millionaires in tax breaks, it's been fun. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
woolley Posted April 1, 2016 Share Posted April 1, 2016 I think you underestimate the human spirit - anyway I better go & do a bit, someone's got to keep the millionaires in tax breaks, it's been fun. Go to it Monkey. 80,000 of us here depending on you for our pensions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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