Ken Livingstone

[paswt]

Bernie ,

In a conflict innocent civilians on both sides are killed as well as combatants .

 

To assert that the only folk who are killed are suicide bombers/murderers/rapists is , I would venture to suggest, is inaccurate.

 

I don't support terrorism and it seems a bit ingenuous to suggest that anyone who criticises Israel is being anti semitic or a supporter of Palestinian terrorism.

[Bernie Sanders]

Bernie ,

In a conflict innocent civilians on both sides are killed as well as combatants .

 

To assert that the only folk who are killed are suicide bombers/murderers/rapists is , I would venture to suggest, is inaccurate.

 

I don't support terrorism and it seems a bit ingenuous to suggest that anyone who criticises Israel is being anti semitic or a supporter of Palestinian terrorism.

 

Of course innocent civilians die on both sides, but only ONE side is deliberately targeting innocent civilians. Stop trying to present a false moral equivalency. Israel has a policy of going out of its way to avoid innocent civilian casualties. The Palestinian terrorist groups (who run the government) have a policy of causing innocent civilian casualties. Yes, one-sided misrepresentation and anti-Israel bias is fundamentally rooted in anti-semitism.

 

And SMUJ, that campaign isn't over yet. She may get indicted yet.

[Max Power]

 

 

What killing of innocent Palestinians? If you think that killing innocent people is Israeli Government policy then you're way off in conspiracy land.

What do you mean, are you saying that every Palestinian killed is a suicide bomber?

I never said it was policy, but they are indiscriminate in their bombing and the way that they have claimed and occupied land from the West Bank and Gaza strip. There are more casualties amongst Palestinians than Israelis.

I am not a supporter of Palestinian terrorism but you have to be able to see how the ordinary people are being made to suffer by over zealous retaliation?

 

 

Clearly in your OP you referred to the evil Israelis killing "innocent Palestinians". You obviously think they're all innocent and none of them are suicide bombers or murderers or rapists, etc, even though the reality is that the ones being killed are being killed because they are attacking Israeli civilians or soldiers. If a few innocent people get killed, it's regrettable, but I doubt you'll find any other country that exerts so much effort in avoiding civilian casualties in that part of the world. By whitewashing all these terrorists as "innocent Palestinians", you obviously are a supporter of Palestinian terrorism and your allegation that the Israelis indiscriminately bomb is without any basis or merit. You are making stuff up or getting your "facts" from people who make stuff up. Of course there are more casualties among the Palestinians. What does that have to do with anything? It doesn't prove they are right or wrong. You have the Israelis who are very good at defending themselves and don't want to die versus terrorists who want to die but not before taking as many Israelis with them. Obviously in that situation you're going to get more Palestinian terrorists die than Israelis die.

 

You are putting words in my mouth. I simply referred to more innocent Palestinians being killed than Israelis by over use of force. They are not all terrorists, and where did rapists come from, I never mentioned rapists? Why should there be 'more casualties among the Palestinians'?? It has a lot to do with everything.

You say the Israelis are very good at defending themselves, how do you think they do this? Using their well funded army of course, the Palestinians don't have an army, they have to put up with the evil Hamas regime recruiting their children as suicide bombers. The Israelis push peace further and further away when they kill large numbers of innocent people, just as Hamas and its cohorts do the same by attacking Israelis.

 

Don't you dare accuse me of supporting Palestinian or any other form of terrorism or making things up. You don't know me and are obviously a little misinformed, you obviously read a very narrow focused newspaper.

[paswt]

 

Bernie ,

In a conflict innocent civilians on both sides are killed as well as combatants .

 

To assert that the only folk who are killed are suicide bombers/murderers/rapists is , I would venture to suggest, is inaccurate.

 

I don't support terrorism and it seems a bit ingenuous to suggest that anyone who criticises Israel is being anti semitic or a supporter of Palestinian terrorism.

 

Of course innocent civilians die on both sides, but only ONE side is deliberately targeting innocent civilians. Stop trying to present a false moral equivalency. Israel has a policy of going out of its way to avoid innocent civilian casualties. The Palestinian terrorist groups (who run the government) have a policy of causing innocent civilian casualties. Yes, one-sided misrepresentation and anti-Israel bias is fundamentally rooted in anti-semitism.

 

And SMUJ, that campaign isn't over yet. She may get indicted yet.

 

 

"anti Israel bias is fundamentally rooted in anti semitism" ......... an interesting but flawed hypothesis

 

......how would you describe pro Israeli bias ?

 

I reject your assertion........ there is clearly little point in further discussion

 

Edit to add :- .......... I am still struggling to find where the OP referred to the "evil Israelis " ..... hardly fair misquoting a post presumably in order to bolster your aim to label anyone criticising the state of Israel as an anti semite

[Shake me up Judy]

It's unwitting, unconscious anti-semitism, fuelled by left wing ideology and an anti-western world view where Israel is seen as the aggressor in an otherwise benign region. Few other (if any) regions of world conflict seem to matter. Israel are the bad guys. It's the view that I was very familiar with at university years ago, where it was de rigueur for the 'enlightened' undergraduate with their black and white pot-noodle politics; and it's a view that seeped into mainstream politics particularly with the liberationist and student movements of the 1960's onwards. It's very persuasive until you see through it and most people on the left had rejected it by the end of the 1980's.

 

There's a vast difference between this cosy western radicalism and the real horror of the 20th century that lead absolutely rightly and legitimately to the State of Israel. There is no question about this in my mind - none whatsoever. I share the concern for the plight of the ordinary Palestinian people, but the very last thing their leaders in Hamas and Hezbollah want is peace with Israel. For them that is unthinkable and it will never happen. Only the other vast Arab states that surround the contested region can solve this problem but so far they seem very reluctant. Why do you think that is ?

[the stinking enigma]

america?

[pongo]

the evil Hamas regime recruiting their children as suicide bombers. The Israelis push peace further and further away when they kill large numbers of innocent people, just as Hamas and its cohorts do the same by attacking Israelis.

Another Hamas tactic: They deliberately launch rocket attacks from densely populated civilian areas. They do this in the certain knowledge that the Israeli response will cause civilian casualties - which will be reported in graphic detail by the international media. The inevitable reporting of these incidents feeds a victim based propaganda narrative. Clearly Israel has no choice other than to return fire.

 

The Palestinian National Authority officially recognised the right of Israel to exist. But Hamas, which controls the Gaza strip does not. How can there be peace until the people of Gaza reject Hamas?

 

Livingstone, Corbyn, Seamus Milne and much of the militant left seem to be sympathetic towards Hamas. Milne is reported to have even questioned the historic right of Israel to exist (which is rather like questioning the existence of the USA or Australia). Despite the Labour Party having close fraternal historic links with Israel.

 

The displacement of the civilian population is largely the result of the War or Independence which began following the Arab countries invading Israel in 1948 - in contravention of the UN. Many Jewish people were also displaced across the middle-East at this time.

[slinkydevil]

Criticising the Israeli government is not being anti Semitic. This is what happens when a religion and a government become one and the same!

Here's a jewish perspective on it:

 

As a Jewish student in Britain, Ken Livingstone's remarks scare me - and I'm not prepared to forgive Naz Shah

http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/as-a-jewish-student-in-britain-ken-livingstones-remarks-scare-me-and-im-not-prepared-to-forgive-naz-a7005426.html

[Bernie Sanders]

Sorry, I'm a bit mental at the moment.

[Bernie Sanders]

More Jews (Arab Jews) were forced out of Arab countries and lost their land, than Arabs left (of their own accord) the land of Israel (in anticipation of the Arab armies coming in and wiping out the Jews, which failed). Putting aside the fact that Jews originate from the land of Israel over 4,000 years ago, even today, the majority of Jews in Israel are Jews of immediate (as in 20th century) Arab / Middle Eastern origin.

[Chinahand]

Is it anti-Semitic to deny the right of Israel to exist?

 

That would seem to be one of the nubs of this issue.

 

Personally, I think the Jewish people have a right to a homeland and to deny that right comes very close to anti-semitism.

 

I also think the Palestinians also have a right to a homeland and see the occupation and especially the settlement of the West Bank as illegal and unjustifiable in international law.

 

At some point there has to be comprise over the respective land claims in Israel and Palestine. Neither side is capable of this at the moment and the take over of Palestinian nationalism* by Islamic fundamentalism is in my view the biggest obstacle to peace, but Jewish fundamentalism in the settler movement is also a huge barrier.

 

I feel hugely sorry for the civilians on both sides. Hamas et al want as many martyrs as they can get and relishes terrorism against Israeli civilians, Israel is massively heavy handed and uses all the resources of the state to protect its citizens while striking against Hamas with 1000lb bombs in civilian areas. The result is 60 or so Palestinian deaths for every Israeli.

 

Hamas just loves that.

 

I can't see it ending in a generation but see the Trendy Lefty demonisation of Israel and lionisation of Hamas et al as typical of an ideology which has lost its moral compass.

 

 

*Which at one time was Arab nationalism.

[Chinahand]

Interesting take on the issue from the Israeli newspaper Haaretz

 

http://www.haaretz.com/jewish/news/1.717079?v=E170FDD3FFC412FF31744DFE45B450FB

[pongo]

Is it anti-Semitic to deny the right of Israel to exist?

Internationally, normally yes. But many of the settlers, often owning the land they live on, are also opposed to the existence of Israel. So that's confusing.

 

The militant left in Britain simplistically think of Israel more or less as if it were apartheid South Africa. Much of the disenfranchised younger generation and students, poorly educated and steeped in internet conspiracy theories, also believe in mysterious international media and financial elites. And we've been here before with those kind of euphemisms.

 

Nick Cohen makes some important points about the state of the left in Britain here at The Guardian.

[the stinking enigma]

you are so far up your own arse its untrue pongo

[magneto]

So what we're saying is that a few comments of historical fact which are then 'moved' out of context is some how igoing to lead to state sanctioned mass extermination?

 

Get a grip

 

This latest merry go round is nothing more than a slow motion attempt at moving the Labour Party back to the right and replacing Corby with one of the guys. It's also working quite nicely at keeping the Tories mate Mr Green (BHS) off the front pages.