The Lisvane Review

[gettafa]

Isn't it amazing that with so many years of £100millions per annum of extra VAT cash, the Isle of Man has landed so far in the shit, instead of ensuring prosperity or at least a comfortable life for the foreseeable future for the Island as a whole instead of the wealthy few. And the feeding frenzy is still going on - right until the last drop of reserves is safely away.

 

 

The Isle of Man Where You Can.

[Non-Believer]

 

 

 

Lord Lisvane has been asked to:...................

Whose idea was this originally? I'd really love to know.

 

 

There's an interesting suggestion from "Andy Onchan" in comments on iomtoday (prob MF's "Andy Onchan") that perhaps UK Gov, watching from afar, has decided that perhaps (current) Tynwald has once and for all proven itself incapable of running the Island and this is the beginning of intervention, perhaps?

 

Perhaps IoM's days of being a useful tax haven are numbered from various external pressures, it's constitution has served its purpose but now needs to be "wound down"?

 

The post also makes suggestion that this would be extremely humiliating (if true it could well be) but Bell's not too affected because he hasn't got long to push anyway.

 

Maybe our elected Caped Crusaders have collectively finally pushed the patience of Westminster too far and this is the diplomatic way of saying, enough's enough?

[Lawnmower]

It doesn't really matter what comes of this review none of the recommendations will ever be adopted if it means changing legco. Besides it's the government (not the parliament) who are arranging the review and they have a habit of appointing the consultant they want to achieve a specific outcome

 

 

Actually, the opposite is true. Chris Thomas says he put a resolution in Tynwald for a review and the PARLIAMENT (Tynwald) approved it. Nothing to do with Government. It seems a lot of people don't appreciate the difference between Tynwald and Government.

 

So the post above about UK being behind this is also wrong. Our Parliament started this. Whether is goes anywhere or not is nothing to do with the Government or the UK Government, is is a matter for our 'Parliament'.

[Donald Trumps]

 

 

Without wanting to be critical DT but what will happen if people don't accept it? Expressions of general angriness on the Internet? People muttering about it in the pub? I'm sorry but people will put up with everything, as they have done in the last 15 years, because nobody will do anything about it. I doubt Lord Lisvane or IOMG will be put off by Internet moaners protesting on here, or Facebook Groups demanding change. Unless people are prepared to take direct action they will do whatever they like.

Could it be referred to the new governator?

 

If them Manx parliamentarians won't be told how to properly govern themselves in the 21st century by a key figure of the English parliamentary establishment then surely the Crown - being responsible for ensuring 'good government' - will have to step in? If not, they we can get rid of them an all

Possibly, but how would that happen? People would first have to do something to ensure that outcome happened and it's unlikely that this would happen. Also bear in mind that Establishments' work in tandem with each other. The U.K establishment doesn't want instability here so it will provide the best outcome which serves its interests. You only have to put an agreement in front of Bell and he feels compelled to sign it. Therefore the U.K won't run the risk of creating a sense of Manx optimism or handing over any more control to nationalists; as there's a risk that with the next tax agreement that comes down the pipe they might be told to piss off. They like it how it is.

 

The political inertia we have here actively suits them. They give us VAT money, in return we sign any agreement going to make them look good internationally, and if IOMG keep on managing the public sector debts as bad as they do currently then the UK will be bailing us out in a few years and they'll get even more control. It is not in the UKs interest to change the truly appalling system we have here. They have a very compliant crown dependency doing largely what they want us to do without it costing them too much money.

 

 

I know. We're paying for it. "The Crown Dependency franchise fee"

[thesultanofsheight]

 

 

 

Without wanting to be critical DT but what will happen if people don't accept it? Expressions of general angriness on the Internet? People muttering about it in the pub? I'm sorry but people will put up with everything, as they have done in the last 15 years, because nobody will do anything about it. I doubt Lord Lisvane or IOMG will be put off by Internet moaners protesting on here, or Facebook Groups demanding change. Unless people are prepared to take direct action they will do whatever they like.

 

Could it be referred to the new governator?

 

If them Manx parliamentarians won't be told how to properly govern themselves in the 21st century by a key figure of the English parliamentary establishment then surely the Crown - being responsible for ensuring 'good government' - will have to step in? If not, they we can get rid of them an all

Possibly, but how would that happen? People would first have to do something to ensure that outcome happened and it's unlikely that this would happen. Also bear in mind that Establishments' work in tandem with each other. The U.K establishment doesn't want instability here so it will provide the best outcome which serves its interests. You only have to put an agreement in front of Bell and he feels compelled to sign it. Therefore the U.K won't run the risk of creating a sense of Manx optimism or handing over any more control to nationalists; as there's a risk that with the next tax agreement that comes down the pipe they might be told to piss off. They like it how it is.

The political inertia we have here actively suits them. They give us VAT money, in return we sign any agreement going to make them look good internationally, and if IOMG keep on managing the public sector debts as bad as they do currently then the UK will be bailing us out in a few years and they'll get even more control. It is not in the UKs interest to change the truly appalling system we have here. They have a very compliant crown dependency doing largely what they want us to do without it costing them too much money.

I know. We're paying for it. "The Crown Dependency franchise fee"

Well we have the best franchise; much better than Jersey or Guernsey who have to generate their own money rather than wait for the VAT cheques to hit the mat. They won't want to create any opportunity for any better engagement in national politics as that would present a risk to our current compliance. As the Who said in Wont Get Fooled Again: Meet the new boss, same as the old boss.

[Uhtred]

 

It doesn't really matter what comes of this review none of the recommendations will ever be adopted if it means changing legco. Besides it's the government (not the parliament) who are arranging the review and they have a habit of appointing the consultant they want to achieve a specific outcome

 

It seems a lot of people don't appreciate the difference between Tynwald and Government.

95% of posters on these forums for example.

[woolley]

 

It doesn't really matter what comes of this review none of the recommendations will ever be adopted if it means changing legco. Besides it's the government (not the parliament) who are arranging the review and they have a habit of appointing the consultant they want to achieve a specific outcome

 

 

Actually, the opposite is true. Chris Thomas says he put a resolution in Tynwald for a review and the PARLIAMENT (Tynwald) approved it. Nothing to do with Government. It seems a lot of people don't appreciate the difference between Tynwald and Government.

 

So the post above about UK being behind this is also wrong. Our Parliament started this. Whether is goes anywhere or not is nothing to do with the Government or the UK Government, is is a matter for our 'Parliament'.

 

So CT puts in a resolution to Tynwald for a review and Tynwald approved it. That much I can swallow. How do we get from there to a member of the House of Lords being appointed to carry out said review? Who picks up the resolution from Tynwald and makes the arrangements? Clearly it went from the IOM Government to the UK government. Who then chooses the person to carry out the task? Who is he answerable to? It looks to me as though it must be somebody in London. When he has taken all of his evidence and listened to all of the comments, will he then go back and discuss it with the UK Government before any recommendations are published? Will the UK have input to those recommendations? If the answer is no, that seems odd considering his position Westminster. This kind of thing is always shrouded in secrecy. The Edwards review was similar and that certainly did not start in Tynwald.

[Kopek]

... or the difference between Tynwald and the Keys!!!

 

 

While we may ponder what actions the Keys will take on the conclusions of this report and indeed, what conclusions Lisvane will reach, it is foolish to say that Lisvane is an establishment stooge with a predetermined result decided by either Comin or the English Govt.

 

 

Unless of course, if it was Lisvane who killed Kennedy, then everything is up for grabs!

Edited May 2, 2016 by Kopek

[woolley]

I wouldn't presume anything about Lisvane. I just wonder what on Earth this has to do with him, why he was chosen and by whom.

[Cronky]

I wouldn't presume anything about Lisvane. I just wonder what on Earth this has to do with him, why he was chosen and by whom.

 

Perhaps the clue is that the review is being hosted by the Attorney General's Chambers:

 

Attorney General's Chambers

https://www.gov.im/about-the-government/offices/attorney-generals-chambers/

 

The Attorney General for the Isle of Man is appointed by Her Majesty the Queen and holds office during Her Majesty’s pleasure.

 

He is ex officio a member of the Legislative Council and attends meetings of the Council of Ministers.

 

HM Attorney General is the legal adviser to the Crown in the Isle of Man and the Government of the Isle of Man.

 

 

If this was just an IOM Gov thing I would have expected the 'Cabinet Office' to be behind it. Looks to me that this a Whitehall initiative.

 

Cue Barrie Stevens!

[woolley]

My conclusion exactly. Was it suggested that a member of Tynwald should ask for a review? Maybe even subliminally? There are techniques for doing this.

[thesultanofsheight]

While we may ponder what actions the Keys will take on the conclusions of this report and indeed, what conclusions Lisvane will reach, it is foolish to say that Lisvane is an establishment stooge with a predetermined result decided by either Comin or the English Government

It's not foolish to assume that whatever happens the UK government might not wish for too much democracy to be handed to the Manx people given that it's had a most compliant upper and lower house for decades. All its had to do is dish out a few MBEs and oversee a few appointments as the Manx establishment has consistently suppressed democracy to continue it's own vested interests. If all of a sudden people have more say to assert control over things like who is appointed as the Chief Minister, or who gets appointed to Legco then that may present UKG with an element of increased risk over whether international agreement are signed or whether we continue tow the UK line etc. He does not need to be an establishment stooge to arrive at decisions that would make the IOM more manageable by UKG; especially now the whole issue of tax havens is being raised in the global press again.

[Kopek]

I'm sure CT will be along shortly to state that he was not contacted by MI6 to intro this resolution and the stooge is in place to reach the 'obvious conclusion'!

 

Wooley, you follow English politics, you know they are not this subtle, they want Academies, they start to set them up, job done.

 

Too much Tinker Tailor about the above theories?

 

Quite possible that our Clerk to Tynwald had been in frequent touch with their Clerk and Lisvane was thought to be a good choice???

 

Can anyone say why Lisvane would want to be part of a conspiracy?

[woolley]

They can appear to be subtle when they want to. Especially where there is long established protocol as is the case in dealings with the Crown Dependencies. You only need to look at the various VAT "renegotiations" to appreciate the nature of this dance. Everything was oh so diplomatic but the message was loud, clear and uncompromising.

 

This has London stamped all over it for me. But even if it hasn't, my earlier questions hold good. What is the process from Tynwald resolution to the appointment of Lord Lisvane? That's a hell of a jump and we know nothing about it whatsoever. Is that acceptable to the Isle of Man? Who chose him? Who is he answerable to? Will he be assisted in framing the recommendations?

[Ham_N_Eggs]

 

No. The relevance being?

The relevance being is that these people (see last week's Courier) left the Island singing the praises of our Parliament and how it is run. Without a thought of how it serves or otherwise the people of the land.. They get shown around and told the history (which I agree is marvellous) and they get taken in. They could probably speak with the likes of Geoff Corkish MLC for hours and be entertained and taken in by his charisma without sussing that he hasn't an inkling about politics other than what he has been fed, not an original thought or idea in his head. Same goes with most of them. I would imagine in the cabinet office they make sure no VIPs speak to Quayle, Malarkey, Vregeen, Quirk or Houghton for too long. The silver tongued bullshitters will be to the fore.

 

The boy Lisvane will be here for a while though. I hope he gets a chance to see what the place is really like. If he does, he'll be that perplexed those eyebrows will be crossed.

The parliament is NOT the government. The visitors are visiting the Clerk's Office not cabinet office